It's that time of year again!
You know it’s that time of the year again in Holland, when you are greeted by some Dutch person on the street, whose face is painted completely black and is sporting an afro wig, bright red lips and a ridiculous clown-like costume. What is possibly more strange than this very sight, is the fact that many Dutch person finds it a completely normal and acceptable occurrence. Yes, Dutch people like love their Zwarte Piets (Black Peter’s)!
Throughout November and early December the beloved Zwarte Piet icon is ubiquitous and can be found manically smiling away at every turn (grocery store flyers, posters, window displays, television commercials, wrapping paper, candy, and so on). The painted black face image is inescapable.
Looks very similar to Zwarte Piet...
Many western foreigners living or visiting Holland are horrified by such images. Why? Because they naturally conjure up the images of American Blackface: a theatrical practice of the 19th century which propagated racist stereotypes and the mockery of African slaves, and which, appropriately ceased to exist once the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s came into play. Thus the existence of a modern-day nationally-beloved Blackface icon can be associated and/or confused with the racist stereotypes and degrading propaganda of yesteryear.
Sinterklaas is said to have originated from St. Nicolaus, the Bishop of Mira, Turkey. According to the legend, he saved the town from starvation, revived 3 dead children, and offered gifts of dowries to poor girls. The roots of the Zware Piets however, are unclear. Some say these merry helpers are simply black in colour after having gone down the chimneys to deliver presents (really?). Others explain they are “hired helpers”, or simply dark “because they come from Spain”…
Regardless of the explanation, Zwarte Piet’s very presence annually ignites a heated debate amongst Dutch people, tourists, expats and the immigration communities of Holland. Is Zwarte Piet a harmless childhood tradition not worth debating? Or is it an archaic offensive character that no longer has a place in a multicultural society? We’ll keep our opinions to ourselves, but it’s up to YOU to decide!
zwarte Pieten were in fact Mooors. They did live in Spain since they are of Arab origin and they were darker than most Arabs.Yes traditions are nice and should remain. It has nothing to do with the civil rights movement of African Americans!!!!Check your history and yes Sinterklaas was from Turkey.
Wynanda – perhaps you need to re-read the article, we never said it had anything to do with the civil rights movement.
it is important to always remember that in order to breed a culture of understanding, integration and equality, one must always consider the cultural perspectives and sensitivities of those other than their own. The Netherlands has a large (and growing) immigrant population, and many whom have spoken openly about taking offense to this particular tradition. Ultimately, it’s about embracing one’s own culture, but also acknowledging that the world (and the face of Holland) has changed.
What often surprises me is the Dutch people’s inability to anticipate how things are taken by others. “We didn’t mean any offence, so it’s your problem that you feel offended”, is not a very good attitude as global citizens. Piets’ problems are the act of caricaturing – not just the dark skin, but the afro hair, thick red lips, etc, are racial characteristics having been exaggerated – it’s a derogative to make vicious fun of certain groups of people. If somebody picks my racial characteristics and caricatured them, I would feel offended. “We didn’t mean any offence” doesn’t work, because I know there was a clear intention to offend me. In a similar manner, the Zwarte Pieten tradition needs to examine what it’s referring to. It’s difficult to discuss especially when children are having fun, and we all love them, but this tradition is teaching them that they can be excused of anything if they declare “no offence intended”. Dat kan niet?!
I agree that simply saying, we didn’t mean offence, is too easy. However in a way you can say it in this case. Seriously, I never ever saw Zwarte Piet as racist or anything, until I explained the tradition in England, and they thought it to be racist. Zwarte Piet is black, true, but he is also one of the most beloved traditional figures! Maybe I’m too narrow-minded and love Zwarte Piet too much, but I honestly can’t understand how anyone can be offended by Zwarte Piet. He’s just cool!
Anyone who defends this is delusional. The offense people feel for this image is real, visceral and should not be denied by claims of tradition. Wake up, Holland – the century turned while you were busy defining gezellig.
Sorry, are you saying that Spanish people are “darker than most arabs”? have you even seen a Spaniard in your whole life? Well, if this tradition is not meant to offend black people, seems that it can indeed be quite offensive for Spaniards! Anyway my fellow countrymen will for sure have a loud laugh when I tell them that those little black guys are supposed to represent us
nope. It is refering to Moors. Maybe you should catch up a little on your own spanish history, Ignacio. Reggie. Considering its for kids. We do give it meaning as racist behaviour. Kids dont. (they are just awfully frightened by them, which you may want to debate anyway if “good behaviour” is rewarded bij a playstation 3 and “bad behaviour” needs to be punished by scary dark black guys). Anyways, we “adults” put a racist meaning to it, which is culturaly programmed. Its just for kids. Dont give more meaning to it then nescecarry (never know how to write that word…)
further to my comment I did not spell Moors correctly but they came from Spain and the “ridiculous clownlike costume ” was in fact the way men dressed in that period when it was brought to Holland during the 80 year war they had with Spain 16th century.
Just a comment: I doubt there were any Moors in the Spanish armies that fought the Eighty Years´ War, as Moors, Jews and people of their ancestry were expelled from Spain by the Catholic Monarchs by the end of the 15th century.
If Sinterklaas comes originally from Turkey, maybe they come from the people of African ancestry that did fought in the Ottoman armies?
Another fact to support the stereotype is that Zwarte Pieten are often considered to be dumb. They lose gifts and make foolish mistakes, all for the entertainment of the children.
Even though it looks like an incredibly racist tradition, I have never ever noticed any racist remarks on the topic. No one gets hurt, no one is personally offended and the kids love it.
A final remark that would be nice to point out that Sinterklaas is the original Santa Clause, you can see the similarities in the name. Dutch immigrants who moved to the US a long time ago took the Sinterklaas tradition with them and cherished it. Some things have changed over time of course, like the later celebration and the replacement of Zwarte Pieten with elves.
Right, they replaced him with elves, because it was racist, and it derogatory to black people. End of discussion.
Absolute bollocks mate, they are black because they crawl through the chimney to put the presents in the shoes of the children has absolutely NOTHING to do with racism a horrible word and often (ab)used to shut you up. its the newcomers that have the hangup about it they need to grow up and dont look at the past but the future, like the Germans, everybody knows what they have done in the past but that was then a whole different generation and we dont hold the new generation responsible for what their parents have done they just need to grow up and get on with it!. like with everything nowadays is classed as racist Blanke vla, neger zoen zwarte piet if you dont like our traditions dont come and live in our country i dont want to change for nobody especially if its unreasonable
It’s quite rude to say “End of discussion.” like that.
Certainly since there’s still a lot to be said on the subject:
First of all, if zwarte piet is racist, elves are discriminating towards little people. Are they?
Secondly, zwarte piet is black because he is supposed to depict a chimney cleaner, blackened by the ashes in there. HELL, they even have a “roe” which is basically a bundle of twigs tied together. Parents use this roe to scare their children (“Finish your pea or Zwarte Piet will come slap you with his roe!”) but in fact it used to be a tool used by chimney cleaners.
So having a Zwarte Piet as helpers is not okay, but having vertically challenged people is? That’s not racist? Get a grip. The Santa Claus/elves tradition is just as racist against little people.
Santa was a composite of two european holiday icons, Sinterklaas, a norwegian troll like creature with a red cloak… CocaCola company hired a lady to make a friendly man based on the two mentioned above, and thats how we got Saint Nicolas (Sint nicolaas-Sinterklaas) from the north pole (norway) with a red costume and raindeer… this is a basic recap of what you can find with google
Please don’t put the typical American ‘racist-recogniser’ on this lovely Dutch tradition. What Americans tend to forget, or perhaps not even know, is that we don’t have the same race-issues you do. We never had segregation, or the long slave history the US had, so traditionally black people are very much integrated in society, making our zwarte pieten no big deal.
It’s not like there are no race issues here, but it’s definitely not the same as in America.
Anna – thank you for assuming we are American (we are not) but will take it as a compliment
You are of course forgetting that the Dutch *do* very much indeed have a “long slave history” – and quite a shocking one at that!
“Although slavery was illegal inside the Netherlands it flourished in the Dutch Empire, and helped support the economy.. By 1650 the Dutch had the pre-eminent slave trade in Europe. Historians agree that in all the Dutch shipped about 550,000 African slaves across the Atlantic, about 75,000 of whom died on board before reaching their destinations. ”
That aside, it is important to always remember that in order to breed a culture of understanding, integration and equality, one must always consider the cultural perspectives and sensitivities of those other than their own. The Netherlands has a large (and growing) immigrant population, and many whom have spoken openly about taking offense to this particular tradition. Ultimately, it’s about embracing one’s own culture, but also acknowledging that the world (and the face of Holland) has changed.
Well call it whatever you want but Zwarte Pieten is supposed to be something fun and cheerfull. It’s not meant to be negative or racist. And it’s not.
Some of those people that take offense by this tradition are just human beings that like to accuse everyone from being a racist.
Dear ‘Stuff Dutch People Like’, I found out today about this site and must say it brought laughter to my face, but when I came to this serious and long discussion, with you guys taking some political correct standing it brought a frown in my face, what should I, as a Dutch girl, than make of your website where you kind of mock the Dutch as a whole??? This is the same thing you ‘acuse’ us (the Dutch) of with the Pieten, only there the issue is more sensitive because it’s about coloured people???? Pls think about that before you make such serious comments. Keep it light I’d say : ))) so I can keep smiling (about my own folk and myself) with some healthy dose of self-sarcasm and self-ridicule…
O dear, yes, and one more thing just came to mind, I actually learned as a child that they are black because they enter houses through the chimney to put presents in your shoe overnight, so NOT because they are of african (or similar) origin!!!!!
It’s also true that it was Dutch clergy who introduced Apartheid to South Africa. And we all know how that turned out…
As an American, I’d like to point out that while America is rather hyper-aware of race issues and perceived racism, it’s not because racism is still a widespread problem (witness our current president), but because we’ve largely emerged from our racist past, and are more sensitive to the feelings of our non-white citizens.
Anna, as a Black person from a former (?) Dutch colony living in the Netherlands I can assure you that there are race issues here. The difference between the Netherlands and the US is that in the US stating one’s race isn’t out of the ordinary. Here, race issues are cleverly disguised as “ethnic” or “cultural” issues. Even though there’s no strict segregation in society, there exist a well-defined binary (“witte” vs. “zwarte” as regards schools for instance). Also people are classified as “Autochtoon” and “Allochtoon” – even though I am a Dutch citizen by birth I am still classified as a, mind you, “Non-Western Allochtoon” just because my roots lie in Caribbean.
And as for the “so traditionally black people are very much integrated in society” I’d have to say that is a load of steaming BS. See, integration to me translates as your seeing it not a problem to send your kids to a school with predominantly “Allochtoon” kids. Integration is seeing equal representation in politics of Black people. Do you know how many of the 150 members of the “Tweede Kamer” are “Allochtoon”? Integration means that Black people are not seen as “single issue” people; it means that our opinions are not viewed as “subjective” while white Dutch people’s opinions are viewed as “objective”. Integration means that temp agencies don’t honour the requests of companies when these companies have a “whites only” policy, and that they report these companies.
Integration to you apparently means “joining in the celebrations of Sinterklaas” or eating Speculaas and wearing orange during Koninginnedag. There are many Black people who don’t love Zwarte Piet but are too afraid to speak out against it, because of the violent reactions.
HERE HERE!
as a Black person from a former (?) Dutch colony living in the Netherlands I so agree with you. Thank you for breaking it down.
Amen!
I can assure you, that not only many Black people don’t love Zwarte Piet, but also many white don’t like it at all!
No one is arguing that there are no race issues in the Netherlands! But I can’t see how your argument that they *do* exist, has anything to do with Zwarte Piet.
Indeed, many black people may not love Zwarte Piet. However, as a Dutch person who grew up here, I can assure you, and all those who think Zwarte Piet is racist, Dutch children are raised with this tradition when they are very young and do not see Zwarte Piet as a slave, subordinate or anything less. It’s a character. He can be awesome; some of them can do acrobatics, or have other cool skills and they’re always happy. Children also dress up like them (more than Sinterklaas) because they’re cool. Children don’t associate Zwarte Piet with race. Just like no child associates Bert and Ernie with a gay couple (although they are two men living together all their lives; I’ve read the concerns about this too).
These associations only begin when adults start to over-think the background of simple children stories. By then they’ll have enough life experience of their own to evaluate the truth behind the story.
What proponents of Zwarte Piet refuse to understand is that you cannot dictate what is offensive in the ken of another person. It is a fact that Zwarte Piet was born out of the Netherlands’ involvement in the slave trade, hence the similarities between American blackface and other racist institutions like the Gollywog. Where Zwarte Piet proponents contradict their argument lies in the fact that the myth was changed in the 1960s when Black people from lands that were occupied by the Dutch started to migrate to the Netherlands. This is an admission of wrongdoing. Sorry, you can justify it however you’d like, but it is an anachronistic practice that truly has no place in a multicultural society.
As for your belief that there are no race problems in the Netherlands, that is fallacious. I have lived here for two years and the issues abound. The worst thing about race issues in the Netherlands is that no one can put emotions aside to create any intellectual discourse. At least in the US we talk about these problems. The Dutch are not the most inclusive group of people and expect immigrants to assimilate and except their way of life wholeheartedly. When they don’t, they become “allochtoonen,” or unwanted foreigners. Dutch people that tell you they are not racist, ask them how they feel about Moroccans.
Chad, I grew up in the Netherlands, lived in USA, Germany and am now in Eastern Europe, have seen my share of cultures and know that you can find as*oles anywhere but that you can never generalize people as a whole even if a large part of them behaves in a certain way. When I grew up, in my school I was in class with Turks, Maroccans, Saoudi Arabi and Chinese kids, probably more but it was not an issue then. We happily celebrated Sinterklaas every year and never shouted zwarte piet at a black kid, that would have been funny because there was (and in my believe still isn’t) a connection to be made. Besides that, Pieten are black (in the tradition) because they ride the chimney a lot… I’m not saying there are no race issues in the Netherlands at the moment but the way you are venting your opinion here is not helping in a positive way, you just provoke agressiveness and if you are so righteous than you could maybe try to understand that not all Dutch people are the same either.. besides that I think this is not the right place for these discussions, as I hope the intention of this blog is to mock the Dutch in a light and funny way… not to open political discussions of which we have so many all over the place…
On your first: What opponents seem to refuse to understand is that not everybody cares about offending people. I loved zwarte piet as a kid, and ill pass on the tradition to my kids (if “American race-complaining” hasnt seeped into our society by then)
On your second one: What is wrong with expecting immigrants to learn the language, customs and values of the country they inhabit?
“It is a fact that Zwarte Piet was born out of the Netherlands’ involvement in the slave trade”
No. No it is not. This is something you have made up, and are now stating as a fact. But it isn’t at all true.
Anna, in fact Holland was one of the last countries that banished slavery. But most of the black people who live here are from Suriname, and those people grew up with Sinterklaas as wel, thus no harm is done.
Are you SERIOUS?! Do you even know what you are talking about. Have you not noticed (that is if you live in Holland) that the people protesting this farce are mostly Surinamese. Seriously?! no harm done? No harm to whom
I love how Dutch people just bend history and present theirs as one of a country that didn´t do any harm and was human rights-abiding, while the rest of the nations were enslaving the world.
LEARN about your own history, and about your own present. As a foreigner who has lived in the Netherlands, I do assure you your country has indeed race and nationality issues.
Listen to this about an American seeing ‘Zwarte Piet’
As we were having a conversation (in America) about family holiday traditions, my mother (Dutch) proudly announced to all, “Well, in Holland, our Santa Claus has TWO black peters!!” There wasn’t a dry eye in the room.
The zwarte piet was black because they used to go down the chimney to bring kids their kids.. its pretty ignorant to say otherwise or doubt it. This website is pretty much offensive to dutch people, there are funny things but sometimes you just cross the line. And you say you are not american but you make allot of comparisons from an american point of view. Like the names. Names are normally not translated so the names are perfectly fine if americans took the time to learn how to pronounce them. you dont hear dutch people call dick, dik which is a stupid name in both languages. I like this website and i do have a sense of humor but like you said , we’re direct and try and tell what we think
It’s funny how the post above says “we’re direct and tell what we think” (which is true), but at the same time can’t handle the fact that the writer(s) of SDPL are also direct and say what they think – and are damn funny about it. Michelle should be proud that the authors are so well ingeburgerd
.
Yet, the Netherlands is the most Americanized of all European countries. Also, the Zwarte Piet story you are referring to is the propaganda you guys tell to your children to hide the slavery origins. Stop lying to your children.
Also, for a group of people that claim to be “direct” (read: rude), the Dutch surely cannot take any criticism or humor directed at them. Ease up…
I think Germany is, in fact….or America is Germanized… anyway, exept for the language thera are too much similarities, like in the way they leave their hotelrooms, after they checked out… if they are a big dirty mess, it is either an american or a german that used that room. What about racism, I am dutch born and out of the NL for some time now (about 20 years) but stayed some 8 months a few years ago and I didn´t like what the NL are becoming… i.e. racist, xenofobic, islamofobic, greedy, harsh against the lower working class people, killing the spirit of the leftist volksbuurten with their capitalistic “values”… I didn´t like it at all. Now Zwarte Piet is some obscure story no-one really knows it origin of, Why not accept it like the 7 dwarfs in Cinderella (not making fun of genetic deformation) or The ugly guy in the beauty and the beast…. a fairytale played out for children… nothing more nothing less…. Is that fair?
Yes, it might be true that we are the most Americanized of all European countries, but actually, I don’t know because I haven’t been in America yet.
And about the propaganda of Zwarte Piet, I really think you’re so wrong there, because we celebrate it as a feast of well, being together and ‘gezelligheid’. Us hiding the slavery? Personally, I don’t think so, considering the fact that I learned a LOT about it on primary and secondary school, and yes, also about the big influence of the Dutch in it. As I remember Sinterklaas from my childhood, it was by far the most enjoyable feast of the year and Sinterklaas wouldn’t be Sinterklaas without the Zwarte Pieten.
Last thing, about the directness, yes, you’re true about us not liking it, I don’t like it either at first, but then I realize that’s just their opinion, and everybody should be allowed to make it public. I maybe also adapt, and improve, after these opinions, which, I think, is a good thing.
“We are direct and tell what we think, but when a foreigner tells stuff we don’t like about the Netherlands, it’s offensive and… why doesn’t he just leave?”
Quite a typical Dutch reaction. At least my experience since I live here. For me it’s not a problem, I always make fun of it
this brings back memories from my childhood
i was always the one who was Zwarte piet
due to the fact i was black ( from East Africa)
but it didnt bother me at all i always loved Sinterklaas
lots of presents and pepernoten YUM
Actually, Sinterklaas has probably evolved from the Germanic god Wodan, who rode his six legged white horse Sleipnir through the air accompanied by two ravens.
As happened with many heathen holidays, it was thought easier to replace them with christian symbols, ie. a bishop with his slaves, than banish them completely.
That’s the reason Sinterklaas rides on his white horse on the roofs.
Wow. Didn’t know that, Folco. Thx for the insight. Interesting!
You’re absolutely right. With Christmas, we used to celebrate that the days were getting longer, after the sun was ‘dead’ for three days. Many symbols, like the one you mentioned, stem from astrology and later mythology.
Huginn and Muninn, two black ravens who (like zwarte pieten) listen at the chimneys so they can tell Wodan about the good or bad deeds done by the residents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origin_and_evolution
Exactly. Also a funny detail is that this blog correctly says: “..a theatrical practice of the 19th century which propagated racist stereotypes and the mockery of African slaves, and which, appropriately ceased to exist once the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s came into play.”
This happened way earlier already in Europe, as it did in the USA. Rosa Parks only died recently… Its way more fresh there, and I think that Americans are trying to ‘over compensate’ now for their ‘apartheid’ that they had for such a long time.
I read an interview once with a black female comedian (American) living in Europe. She was offended that here people would point her out in a group that besides her consists of white people as ‘the black girl’, and in the USA they would refer to her clothes, eye colour, or her hairstyle. She described the Dutch way as a rude and racist way of saying who’s it about.
I think thats hypocrite. I think the offended part has mostly to do with trying to see racism everywhere, which has to do with the more recent apartheid in the USA. In Belgium they also have sinterklaas, and also Germans are not offended by it. Dutch people that are originally from Surinam or the Dutch Antilles are also not offended by it.
Whatever the origins of the Zwarte Pieten it’s not meant to be insulting. If people nowadays still take offence to it, it’s because of what they believe the origin was. I just think that spoils a fun and innocent children’s event, people should look beyond their nose and not judge so fast (or at least not judge merely from their own point of view but also have regards to the meaning behind it and how it’s perceived in the Netherlands itself). To children there’s acutally a great difference between Zwarte Piet and someone who has dark skin because Zwarte Piet is ashblack, has very red lips and wears a ‘funny’ costume. They very well know the difference thus adults should certainly be able to distinguish them. Even though Pieten often act silly (and lose presents) anyone can understand this is not because dark people are considered dumb but is to entertain the children and it makes for great new Sinterklaas story every year (on tv). There is no racist message in this children’s story (anymore) unless people intentionally give it one. Also Zwarte Pieten are not thought of as less than anyone else (they’re maybe even liked more because they have candy and bring gifts).
It may be a somewhat strange tradition but it gives great joy and brings people together, I would say it doesn’t have bad influences (except maybe consumerism).
(I understand due to racism the whole Zwarte Pieten issue is rather sensitive but with “adult-questions” any children’s story can be ruined. The fact is children are a lot more innocent and honest and would not infer racism from the story unless adults bring that into the mix).
I was called zwarte piet, my father was, my brothers were, now my sons are….and they dont like it….bord voor je kop?
It is hilarious to me that you are an adult arguing this issue from the point of a child. People have said they are offended, but for whatever reason, Zwarte Piet proponents refuse to hear them out. Nice way to welcome people.
Everyone can find a reason to be offended. That is just really childish. Grow up and let our children have fun. It is a great honour to be Zwarte Piet, Sinterklaas’ helper, making a lot of children (and also older people) happy.
Well, I must (as a white dutch woman) agree with Anna, I remember that as a child I didn’t see Zwarte Piet a black person, but just as Zwarte Piet. After all, if you paint a white person black it doesn’t become a black person, he becomes Zwarte Piet, I think even children realise that somehow. Moreover, even coloured children are painted black when they dress up as Zwarte Piet.
I’ll be the last person to state that the Netherlands don’t have problems, but I think there are far more important issues than Zwarte Piet.
Anna, you vented exactly my opinion on this (long and very serious) discussion.. When I was growing up (with lots of different races in my school-class) in the Netherlands, I never made a connection with black people, zwarte piet is just zwarte piet. And this has nothing to do with trying to argue an issue from the view of a child (@Chad B.) it’s just that it’s still like that for me and also for the children I know that like Sinterklaas and his pieten. So, even when I read the comments of the anti-pieten folk here, yes, I do give it some thought, I don’t just write it off but it immediately brings to mind this; should white people be offended because clowns are only white?? I mean, I do not make any association between myself and caucasion clowns because I darn well know there is none to make. Same for the pieten and any ‘coloured’ people. Just because we have a few silly pieten running around a few weeks a year does NOT mean we think coloured people are dumb.
For ‘whites’ it might not be racist (duuh) but there are a lot of people in the Netherlands from Suriname and The Dutch Antilles who do take offence.
The danger is you influence the subconscious of children, zwarte piet has dark skin and he is the servant of the white sinterklaas. That is the message ‘white’ kids will unconsciously remember, we are conditioning them to think ‘dark’ people are inferieur and they are there to serve us. We see the white man on his horse en his black servants walk beside him, the black servants do all the hard work.
I’m sorry to say this but I’ve never felt the Dutch were genuine in their acceptance of other ethnicities. It’s a fake tolerance! Looking at the history of the Dutch I must say that the Dutch were one of the most racist nations. Deep in their hart I know for a fact they would rather see all non-native Dutch gone out of their country. It’s just in their nature..they can’t help it. They can not even see racism while it’s happening in front of their own eyes.
Wow Adriana, I have never in my whole life heard such a harsh comment as yours. I’d love to have a face-to-face conversation with u about this. But let’s stick to this medium. A couple of things: the Dutch people u’re refering to are the people voting extreme right. That’s one in 6 perhaps? That’s a lot! But 5 in 6 dón’t think that way. So I actually feel quite offended that u says these things about what’s happening ‘deep inside my heart’. Those voters indeed would like to have a 100% white nation (although they’re afraid to say it out loud. But this opinion is not Dutch, it’s European (Belgium, France, Switserland, Norway, Italy, etc.).
The Dutch history indeed has many black pages, a lot of them filled with slavery. And this should be taught much more in schools. ‘Our Golden Age’ wasn’t as golden as we think. But again, this was not just a Dutch phenomenon. (Not that that makes it right or anything.)
More importantly, I think ur observation on Zwarte Piet is rather narrow minded. The only message u see is children would learn that ‘blacks’ are inferieur. Why wouldn’t they learn that ‘blacks’ are friendly, kind and fun? Because that’s what Zwarte Piet is. On a personal note, as a child I have never made the link between Zwarte Piet and black people. For me Zwarte Piet was something like a fairy tale figure that does not exist in real society. But that’s just me.
I wish everyone well. Love, love, love!!!
Hey Adriana,
Curious to know what your nationality is and for example religion. Pretty sure your ancestors have some corpses hidden in their closet. As what Jeroen said before, zwarte Piet is a nice guy nowadays. Kids believe in Sinterklaas untill they are about 10 years old, after that they see it is all made up and have enough time to grow up and now what real life is about. Bad role models/parenting creates rasism, not a childrens tale like Sinterklaas.
Lol!
“Deep in their hart I know for a fact they would rather see all non-native Dutch gone out of their country. It’s just in their nature..they can’t help it.”
You’re accusing an entire country of being racist… Isn’t that, uhm, racist?
No it isn’t racist.
Children aren’t born racist….they maybe become by their surroundings….I have a lot of Curacao colleges and they all celebrate Sinterklaas and don’t think; Hey this is racist.
No we are not a country of racist…..just a few ignorant people.
I live in Suriname.. and you know what they celebrate here every year in December, Adriana? Yep… Sinterklaas. And yes, he has Zwarte Pieten with him and all (most black) kids at the schools where Sinterklaas and the Zwarte Pieten show up, love it!!
If you typed your comment from The Netherlands, then it means you’re ok enough to live, work and share your opinions with this “racist” people. Kinda hypocritical of you, if you ask me. I mean, if I would feel disciminated and offended, I’d get the first plane back to my home country. And I do mean that, since I’m not from here.
Even though my culture shock is not over yet, I have immense respect for the Dutch working people(majority) because, for a “racist” people, they sustain a lot of “vluchtelingen” and unemployed black people, straight out of their pocket, every month!!
And when I travel by OV I see a lot of harmony out there and friends or colleagues who don’t judge by skin color, but by Quality and Character. *hint hint nudge nudge*
Another super-typical Dutch reaction whenever somebody express a negative opinion on the Netherlands: “don’t be a hypocrit, just leave!”. No, let’s get things straight, there are no masochists here (well, there might be some, but that’s not the point
). If a foreigner lives here, it’s because the balance is positive. But, hey, does it mean that every feature of the Netherlands is positive? No. And since this is a free country (point for NL!) we can speak our minds out.
When foreigners come to Spain they always complain about our stupid timetables. Guess what, at first everybody was taking a piss on them and telling them to stay in Norway or wherever they came from if they liked their timetables better. When Spaniards started to emigrate in-masse in the last years (a process that started even before the crisis broke in) and saw the benefits of a more rational timetable, the public opinion in Spain started to shift to the point that the 2 major candidates to last general election even agreed on a TV debate that they would like to pass laws to enforce the companies have more “European” working timetables.
Moral of the story: when you see many foreigners complaining about something, first of all don’t think that they don’t like living in your country. Don’t assume foreigners are masochists by nature. Second, don’t ever answer with the stupid “why don’t you just leave”. And third, maybe give it a thought. You have your ways of doing stuff, fine, it doesn’t mean that other people can’t have different ways of doing the same stuff! and sometimes, they might be better (or not).
Darnit, Ignacio, that would take all the fun out of working in Spain.
As a native Dutch, I am sad to hear this.
The pitfall in your argumentation comes from this sentence “zwarte piet has dark skin”. While people not native to the Netherlands may perceive it as such, this is in fact coot that clings to the piet’s face as he climbs through the chimney to deliver presents. It is not skin, it is paint!
I have grown up with this tradition, but have never associated Zwarte piet with black people until this issue was brought up in recent years. I believe many fellow Dutch share this experience. The Dutch simply do not realize this may be offensive to people of other cultures.
I think you’re also generalizing here. Black people are our servants? Of course not! That is not the message Sinterklaas conveys to me. Children associate Zwarte piet with candy, fun and acrobatics.
If this tradition is so truly offensive and if it truly teaches a bad message towards children, then I agree that the black paint should be discarded. But Sinterklaas is ingrained in our culture. It would be the same as people saying that Thanksgiving is offensive (it is not). But expecting a beloved tradition to change because of this is nigh impossible, especially since you are dealing with something many Dutch are sentimental about and never intended any harm with.
I’d like to apologize to anyone who feels offended by this tradition, and ask them to realize that in no way is it meant to insult any other cultures. In recent years the Dutch have grown intolerant of other cultures, something we will have to fix.
But instead of focusing on such a beloved holiday, may we focus on issues that are true cause for concern such as the growing intolerance for gay people and the intolerance towards muslims?
With all do respect I don’t know any person who would say yeah look at Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet that shows how it really should be, even racists don’t use that children’s story as an example. Like I said before: children know the difference between e.g. someone from Suriname and Zwarte Piet. The way children view it a “Zwarte Piet” is something completely different from all the humans they know, it might as well be a big teddy bear in funny clothes (or elves). And when they’re older they’re told what the truth is and everyone understands that the Piets only act silly because it’s fun for the children, not because darker people are actually dumber or deserve less. The only way children would learn a racist lesson from this children’s story is if adult’s give it a racist motive.
No one denies that very bad things have been done in our past but we can’t change that (I’m guessing you’re referring to the slave-trade and the colonisation) but I can not at all relate to the picture you’re painting of the current Dutch population.
“Deep in their hart I know for a fact they would rather see all non-native Dutch gone out of their country. It’s just in their nature..they can’t help it.”
As to the first point: “I know for a fact”, I wonder how you verified that “fact”. I think that idea is based on “onderbuikgevoelens” (negative gutfeelings). That is exactly the same thing racists base their ideas and arguments on (“but I just know all black people are…”), and those are equally void.
Also what you state is simply not true for the majority of the Dutch people. Maybe in practice ideas haven’t always worked out well but there were (and still are) a lot of good intentions.
As to the second point: it appears you say all white Dutch people are dumb and can’t think for themselves. Seems as if you lump us all together, that shows great short-sightedness and that too happens to be the case with racism. We’re not that dumb that we can not think for ourselves, nature doesn’t determine everything.
Sure there are racists in the Netherlands, as there are in any society. Sure the (political) climate is becoming more and more harsh with Wilders, but the majority does not support him. I would say the racists are the minority and if you have other experiences ask yourself if the people you have bad experiences with are representative of all the Dutch people.
All I want to say is ideas based on negative gutfeelings, short-sightedness and pessimism are never a good thing, that goes for everyone.
wow adriana, did you have a bad experience? I’m dutch and have really always seen the zwarte pietjes as good persons cause they are helping an old man. It has nothing to do with race for children. And also, all dutch are racist in their harts? Haha wtf.
My best friends in basisschool were from surinam and africa(their parents) and now I’m traveling through asia with my best friend for years, she is from malasia. My sister in law is also half-surinaams. And this kind of blends you can find everywhere un holland. So again, wtf? Not saying that there isn’t racism at all, but be realistic.
Really, the Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with racism. One cannot judge customs of an other culture with perceptions from ones own culture and background.
The Sinterklaas festivity is based on different, and very old, customs at the end of the year, from all over Europe.
The white and black represent also the dark ending of the year and the coming of light after that. Also it has some elements of the cleansing at the end of the year, and mocking bad habits. (The helpers carry bags to catch naughty children, or wips or canes).
Sinterklaas comes to many countries in Europe. In some places he rides a donkey and his helpers can be red haired brutes, devils (with black masks) or angels.
Through the years, Sinterklaas has changed and the celebration is influenced greatly by the Roman Catholic church, that started the shoe ritual: the young mass servants left their shoes in the church and found them the next morning, filled with presents.
The dress of Zwarte Piet is the dress that was common in the old days. Nothing silly about that! Today the Swiss guards of the Vatican still wear them. Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard
Ah well, it may be racist to those who fully understand the history behind the ‘zwarte pieten’, but children don’t see it that way. The only thing I remember was that I was seriously afraid of Sinterklaas and his helpers.;) Don’t know if you are familiar with some books for children in the Netherlands, like ‘Jip en Janneke’? They are very old fashioned about the role of female and male. But as a child you don’t pick that up, until you read it again when your older. My parents say that children cannot yet make such nuances in real life, that’s why it’s put this way.
There have been enough explanations about the history behind the Zwarte Pieten. They bring lots of joy and fun and there’s not a dutch child who compares the Zwarte Piet with a slave and there’s not a parent who will teach them such nonsens. Zwarte Pieten are the nice and funny assistents of Sinterklaas, they are much beter gymnasts than the old Sinterklaas and in that way superior. If the people who have joined us from abroad throughout the years don’t like them, well, look the other way I would say or join our party.
We loved our “negerzoenen” and because of the protests simular to those of stuffdutchpeoplelike.com (racial themes) the name is forbidden (yes, really!!) and are called “zoenen” now. What a pity, by the way, the “zoenen” are still black (chocolate…)
First of all: I love the celebration of Sinterklaas en Zwarte Piet.
I’m Dutch with roots in Suriname and Indonesia and it does not bother me at all that Zwarte Piet (Black Peter) is who he is and acts the way he acts: it’s just good fun.
I would like to comment on Ellen and the negerzoenen story: it turned out that there was no (racial) protest against the original name. The so called racial complaints where made up by the marketing department of the company who produced it. They have made public apologies for the fact of selling a fake story to the media about these so called racial complaints. They just wanted attention for the new product name and came up with this ‘marketing stunt’. Some bad marketing department if you ask me..
Anyway, I hope Sinterklaas en Zwarte Piet are here to stay
I think I just pissed myself laughing…. Of course Zwarte Piet is totally racist (my mum tried to hide that fact by telling us that his face was black with soot; and the poor versions of Zwarte Piet at our school just had their faces painted black with shoe polish – picture a sorta black face with lily white ears). So my dear fellow Dutchies, don’t get your knickers in a twist when somebody suggests that this tradition is completely ridiculous and right out insulting. But in my eyes, that is what is so freaking funny about it. Everyone except for most Dutch people can see that holding on to Zwarte Piet is just as bad as telling your neighbour from the Suriname to go pick you some cotton…….no disrespect meant…
If you’re going to try and be technical it can’t even be racism since Zwarte Pieten aren’t a race. They actualy consist of various races who paint their faces black (i.e. pitch black) and hardly anyone links that to a person with darker skin. You can even turn it around and say that people who think it’s offensive are racists themselves by comparing a Zwarte Piet (a clown with silly outfit) with a regular person who happens to have darker skin…
After reading all the comments above, I’ve just two things to say. First of all who is bring up the discussion every year? The black people coming from abroad, the black people who grew up in Holland, the white people from abroad or the white people who grew up in Holland. Secondly, outside of that Zwarte Piet is a different kind of thing, i wouldn’t even call him human. Zwarte Piet is Zwarte Piet.
When I was a kid I didn’t see Zwarte Piet as a black person. (Even though I’m coloured myself). He’s just black because of the chimney dust. Well, that’s what my parents told me. So, I believed that because it’s all part of the mystery. And I love the idea that Zwarte Piet could squeeze himself though the narrow pipe.
So, I agree. There’s no need to start this discussion about racism every year. Zwarte Piet is just Zwarte Piet. And we all love him.
No intention to go into the racism subject, but indeed Zwarte Piet is the part of the tradition that shocks foreigners and is considered innocent and normal by the Dutch.
Funny thing, you cannot be black to dress as Zwarte Piet, you should be white and paint your face.
But after some time living here, foreigners end up understanding that it’s not related with any discriminative issue, Dutch people do not discriminate races, only cultures.
Heh, I once did see an actual black person being dressed up as Zwarte Piet. And I must say that he had the most fun of them all because he didn’t have to worry about his make-up messing up =P
And well… there was that one time during ‘Sinterklaas’ that I heard a little kid (3 years old or so) was calling a random black person Zwarte Piet. the mother was embarrassed to the core, but the black guy just thought it was funny xD
Actually, you don’t need to be white, to paint your face black, coloured or black people paint themselves black as well. Btw, ever noticed that he doesn’t have a gender either. Women/girls who play Zwarte Piet do not become Zwarte Petra or something like that. Zwarte Piet is just Zwarte Piet.
No one really knows where they came from, maybe st. nicholas just had black servants. anyway, it’s not intended racially, zwarte pieten aren’t seen as black people as in the race. Everyone I know really did hear as a child that they got black from the soot in the chimneys.
And americans can go about it being racist all they want, you do not mess with Sinterklaas.
apart from all the conflicting comments above. (of which only half i read;))
this is what i believe where the zwarte pieten came from.
saint nicholas saved a village etcetc as in one of the first posts.
as a result a moor (them being quite black) gratefull of this, swore to help him (he mightve been a slave but i rather think he “volunteered”. with this he brought along his entire family..
nicholas being perfectly white was unable to remember (or pronounce?) any of their names and just called them al piet.
the story that they are black from the soot climbing up and down the chimney is i believe our excuse to continue our tradition and try and cover up any racially discutable points out of our national holiday
also i believe that this tradition is more likely to stimulate racial tolerance rather than racism..
Excellent point! Reminds me of when they tried to have coloured Pieten a few years ago. So there were Red, Green, Yellow and Blue Pieten.. there was a collective outrage (from all different kinds of communities) saying how ridiculous that idea was. The year after they were back to their normal, black selves : )
I always think about how the kids react to Zwarte Piet and Sinterklaas. Sinterklaas is stately, he’s old and dignified and although he has a sense of humour, he’s not jolly. Kids are intimidated by Sinterklaas. Zwarte Piet however, is a joker, he does funny things to makes people laugh, kids can relate to him. Sinterklaas being the boss doesn’t mean Zwarte Piet is stupid and has no, or less, value. He’s the relate-able one. When november comes and the intocht is happening, see how many of the watching children dress up as Zwarte Piet and how many dress up as Sinterklaas. Kids really love Zwarte Piet.
Of course we should not discount that the history of the legend is full of race issues. Just look at Zwarte Piet in the Dutch dictionary, there are several negative meanings. You’ll find none for Sinterklaas. But I feel we should watch the children for whom this is all real and see what lessons they take away from it. I haven’t seen any kid respond to a Zwarte Piet badly because of their colour. I myself remember fondly the Zwarte Pieten from when I was a little exited child.
Zwarte Pieten were Moors. They came from Africa. As my dad LIKES to explain it to the kids when he plays Sinterklaas and they ask him where they come from, is that they were inspired by his teachings and followed him.
Or they were just his servants (or, o noes, slaves?!?!)
Still, Zwarte Pieten are part of one of the best Dutch traditions in my opinion. They are like clowns, but unlike clowns, kids LOVE them! Well… some kids are scared shitless, but hey. Clowns are wat more scary!
Also, Zwarte Pieten may be portrayed as dumb, but Sinterklaas himself often isn’t that smart either. That’s what makes it even more brilliant.
Funny I haven’t seen this mentioned yet. As far as I know, the origin of Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with coloured people or chimneys. Originally (and I’m talking roughly 400 to 500 years ago when this tradition started) Sinterklaas, being the holy man he was, came round the houses with a devil on a chain. This of course to show the superiority of the church over Satan and his minions. The devil, coming from hell, would be schorched black by the hellfire. He was played by a man made black with soot being dragged around on an actual chain by Sinterklaas. Later on, this was found to be not very child-friendly and Zwarte Piet was changed into his then ‘less offensive’ person of coloured skin. Later on still even this was deemed offensive and the story about becoming black from the chimney soot was brought in. However, just look at old pictures showing ‘moriaantjes’ and you’ll see his origins.
That said, there’s definitely very little trace left of the inferior coloured person, as Zwarte Piet nowadays takes care of almost everything related to Sinterklaas. In fact, Sinterklaas himself has become little more than the spokesman, with Zwarte Piet taking care of the making and distribution of the presents, the keeping and updating of Sinterklaas’ big book of names and even comforting all the kids that are scared by the old, serious and severe bearded man in a dress
Zwarte Piet is older – under various names – than Sinterklaas, but you are mostly right. The catholic church used him to show christian superiority over the heathen ways. They may have portrayed him as a devil scorched by fire, but the Gehenna type of hell was a Judaic invention. Norse-German Helheim was a bitterly cold place. Zwarte Piet was simply a bogeyman to scare little children into obedience.
I was told by a Croatian (yes, they celebrate it there too, and in Austria) that St Nicholas’ helper over there is indeed some kind of devilish figure who sneaks around the house rattling a chain and making other noises to scare the kids (google for: Krampus). In this case, Zwarte Piet might have originated as some sort of underworldly figure that was “tamed” by Sinterklaas in an early Christian “Good triumphs over Evil” sort of way.
But there are also reverse interpretations of Zwarte Piet’s origins as a warrior of Wodan/Odin who painted himself black in order to be scarier when *fighting* the forces of the underworld, like here: http://www.realmagick.com/7014/how-odin-became-santa-claus-symbolism-and-pagan-origins-of-a-gift-giving-saint/
Clearly though, it was the re-interpretation as Zwarte Piet of these origins in the 19th century Netherlands (earlier pictures and stories of Sinterklaas in the Netherlands do not mention any helpers) that gave him the stereotypical “black” features of that time and which are now causing controversy.
When i was young, i always wanted to be a zwarte piet when i grew up! And i know there are a lot of ‘white’ kids who have the same ambition. I cant’s imagine anything racist in zwarte pieten! I’m a teacher now (not a zwarte piet, to bad!). In my class i have 10 kids, where 1 has dutch parents. The rest of the kids is mostly marocan or turkisch. But they all!! love sinterklaas and zwarte piet.
I’d say that modern Sinterklaas-events are race-related, but not racist. The modern day Zwarte Piet is just a fun children’s character, who would not be seen as problematic if he was an elf or a talking animal. The tradition was racist in a certain way up to the 60s or 70s I think, but while the judgment of people based on the colour of their skin is wrong, you have to realize that most dutch hadn’t seen black people ever. My grandfather told me that the first time he saw a black man, was when the Canadians rolled into town during the second world war. It wasn’t mentioned in the conversation, but I can well imagine that he didn’t see another one until some twenty years later. In most communities outside of large urban centres, there simply wasn’t anyone who could take offense at the tradition. The direct racism seen in America with the Jim Crow laws and slavery was never a part of Dutch culture, or European culture at large, because there simply wasn’t a large group of other-coloured inhabitants (though of course other groups, like Gypsies and Jews were singled out). Up until very recent, European countries were very homogenic in race. I think that the dynamic between Sinterklaas and his Zwarte Pieten changed immensely when coloured people started to come into the country and people started to realise that the way the holiday was celebrated could be offensive to them. The modern day Sinterklaasviering is a continuation of a once racist tradition in a form that is adapted to be as least racist as possible, while retaining our national cultural heritage. It is very difficult to keep one’s own cultural heritage, while trying to not be offensive to people with other backgrounds. So I’d say Sinterklaas isn’t inherently racist, but it isn’t a totally innocent tradition either.
I can very much agree with this!
When I was young I absolutely didn’t think of Zwarte Piet as a black person. Of course he was black, but it was fictional, like someone mentioned earlier.
No, we Dutch have no racist intentions when it comes to Zwarte Piet. But the Dutch are also not at all politically correct like for instance Americans are. This can be good and bad. It can be good in that we aren’t so race-obsessed and wondering with everything whether it will offend black people, which, taken to extremes, can be racist in itself, since it means you are always still pigeonholing people as being of a race.
The bad thing about not being politically correct is that we do tend to be less aware of things that are pretty obvious to others. Such as the fact that Zwarte Piet is Sinterklaas’s servant and that in illustrations especially he looks quite clownesque. The question is: is something only racist if you consciously intend it to be racist, or can something be racist even if the people doing it are not conscious of doing anything wrong? Just because someone says he’s not a racist, doesn’t make it so. Just because someone doesn’t mean to offend, doesn’t mean something can’t be offensive.
I also understand people getting defensive, though, because Sinterklaas is a longstanding tradition and because Zwarte Piet is a mixture of a Moorish sailor and the dark shadows of Norse mythology and just being black from the chimney soot, and it has no connections to American blackface. And we just love everything about Sinterklaas. It’s a much more elaborate tradition than Santa Claus and we’re proud of it and protective of it.
Living in America, I am now ambivalent about Sinterklaas. I always loved it; I was even a Zwarte Piet for the official televison arrival of Sinterklaas once when I was sixteen. If I still lived in Holland (or the Netherlands) I would probably celebrate it with my children with abandon and think nothing of it. But now I live in America and there’s no way I would teach my kids about Zwarte Piet here, because it’s associated with blackface, which does have very strong racist connotations. Yet if I were in Holland around December 5, I would walk around the shopping areas thinking “he, gezellig…”
I don’t care what the origin is…. all cultures have a skeleton in the closet. It is obvious that not even the Dutch are too sure about the origin of Zwarte Piet though. Is he a black Moore? Is he an African slave rescued by Saint Nicholas? Is he a chimney sweep who hasn’t bothered to have a wash? It seems no one is quite sure however the cartoon caricatures my mother in law sends me every year to enable her grand children to celebrate says one thing. The typical stereotypical image of a black person with ridiculously huge red lips, big buggy eyes etc. was thrown out as offensive by the rest of the world, but the Dutch still think its ok. I am struggling to understand.
Oh, the serious Piet researchers are quite well aware what Piet is, he is a Moor, a Blackamoor, a Negro, or whatever you want to call those dark skinned people native on the other side of the Sahara. There is no indication that he is a Moor in the original, strict sense.He is just a blackperson, just like Uncle Remus, Uncle Tom, War Machine, Lucas Cage and so on.. Origin unknown, which reminds us of slavery.
African, to be more specic Ethiopian, slave, liberated by Saint Nicholas? Nice one, and it has to be granted that St. Nicholas does free slaves or a slave in at least one “authentic” legend, and saves other people from the same in other legends. However the one about a legend which is sufficiently racialized to tell or suggest the slave concerned is dark skinned is a pseudo-legend, which seems 120 years YOUNGER than the character itself, with other words an origin story written for a long established character, just one of the many.
Nevertheless, the established function of Saint Nicholas in combination with somebody belonging to the race abused in slavery in the colonies seems to suggest a possible abolitionist origin. Personally I don’t think that there is a direct link between the devil and Piet, though I do not exclude an indirect one. It is of course quite possible that black people serving in Amsterdam inspired the character one way or another, or it could be inspired by people who used the blackface merely as a mask for the celebrations.
Now, you have to understand that Schenkman’s book is a Sinterklaas nexus, it used many things which were already part of the tradition as he knew itand new things and did not tell us which was which: The steamer, the arrival before the feast, the use of his book and the threat of putting chilsdren in the bag were new, Spain and the black companion were thought to be new too, but it seems they did exist already, on the other hand the horse, the throwing of food, the shoe and the singing were clearly “old”elements used. The dignity of St.Nicholas was in itself an old element, but new when seen against the then current background. Even though Pieter was pre-existent we have the character now, because Schenkman decide to use it. The big lips are indeed often strangely overdone in drawings, certainly as the current Zwarte Piet blackface usually makes the lips very red, but does not enlarge them…
Hi, I just came across this very, very short ‘news’ item about a Surinamese man playing Sinterklaas for over 34 years. He paints his face white.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/10937318/__Suri_Sinterklaas_volgeboekt__.html?p=16,1 See from 00:36 till 00:50. (in Dutch)
He gets annoyed about criticasters. He says that “Zwarte Piet” is just a concept that belongs to it.
I love how a very Dutch attitude always comes up in this discussion; “it’s normal, you just have to get used to it”. You can’t argue with that.
I’ve lived in Holland with my (Dutch) wife for 8 years and this same argument beats me down whenever i express concerns over any of the subjects raised by the authors of this site – Birthday congratulations, three kisses (or not), circle parties, second christmas day, etc etc. I have found that simply not getting involved with Sinterklaas and his slaves is not enough, especially now i have a 11 month old baby. I may need to leave the country (which is after all, what they want).
Those are just our traditions.. When you are in Rome, do like the Romans do… Or at least find a middle way.. I live abroad now too and had to change and let go some of my traditions and make space for ways things are done here… That’s just how it is when you decide to move to another country…
I’m Dutch and I hate the three kisses, why can’t it just be 1 or two! I hate circle parties even more. I usually make a game (opgestaan plaatsje vergaan) out of it, whenever some one leaves their seat. There’s nothing wrong with second Christmas day unless it’s spend in an Ikea or a ‘meubelboulevard’
and it’s a great day for ‘uitbuiken’
When u were six years old, what do you know about slaves and Africa?
Right…
I second that!
When u were six, would you say “no” to a man in a Nazi suit that gives out candy & presents?
NO. You would take the candy and smile.
But your parents do not. And they háve to teach children the difference between what is wrong and what is right.
Zwarte Piet is a Moor/African/Surinamese/ servant who has been máde into a servant. And we do not like to see thát history played out every year, again and again.
You do not find it racism? Okay. But seek for emphathy with those who are offended and ask yourself: why is it SO important that zwarte piet the servant, stays black. That is racist by itself.
There will be a public discussion in Amsterdam, http://zwartvanroet.tumblr.com/
What bothers me most about this topic is that the feelings of a many black people in the Netherlands are being discarded as being not important. After their forefathers and mothers were forced into slavery and forced in to christianity, they’re not even allowed to voice their opinion? That to me is proof that “The Dutch” – whatever that means, haven’t learned much the last 2000 years. Right now with this ridiculous government they have the need to turn around and try to look at the future and not worry about preserving the colonial past, because that is what this is about.
Some friends of mine, whom are black as you call it, get recognized as Zwarte Piet by kids during this time of the year.. They think it is adorable and not offending.. To speak in their words; You and I were not responsible for what happened many years ago. And that is true, it doesn’t mean we have to ignore it, but it doesn’t mean that we have to link everything too it. It would be better if we would stop supporting America in everything they do. We live now and in the nearby future.. Not in the past and unfortunately things can’t be undone..
You and I were not responsible for what happened many years ago.
I agree. Whenever someone brings up stuff that my ancestors have done, I tune out. I am only responsible for my own actions.
Colonial past what? This is just something magical i shared with my family, similar to american santaklaus.
As far as I’m concerned it does not become racist to kids until you start learning them it is racist… As mentioned earlier, kids love the tradition and see and feel no harm in it.. However, “older” people who one day loved Sinterklaas & de pieten ow so much now have to preach how racist this whole tradition is.. I find it hypocritical… Leave traditions as they are… And not to mention that Santa is based on Sinterklaas… so should he then dissapear too?… No will be the answer just because Coca Cola decided to use elves instead of Zwarte pieten..
Kids love ánything involved with candy and presents: for them it is okay if Black Pete becomes “Keesje” with a suite form Volendam on. It is people like you who stop progress by holding on to racist memorabilia.
BTW: black people are not 1 group, and just as white people have different opinions (some dó find zwarte piet racist) so do black people have different opinions. Do not use that to diminish the discussion about racism and Dutch Colonial past.
You defend the black pete like defending a dike that is flooded with water. Let it go! He will survive with a silver/golden/purple face. Let it go.
So you’re trying to fight this by attacking with a stereotype? Way to prove a point. Your comment would’ve been a lot more believable if you’d have left the dikes out. Now you’ve just ruined it.
Am glad you brought up the elves of Santa. Since this discussion has started about Zwarte Piet and whether or not it is racist, and should be changed, I have been thinking about Santa. Do any of the people that are against Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet feel that Santa and his elves should be abolished because they are discriminating little people? Doesn’t it seem strange that they get distressed about Zwarte Piet and can completely disregard that Santa’s helpers are usually portrayed as midgets?
Probably not, because that is not who they are, they are Santa’s helpers, make children’s toys and stuff we love them for it.
That same feeling is how many Dutch people view Zwarte Piet, we don’t associate him with a black person, he is just Zwarte Piet, just as Santa’s elves are Santa’s elves and not little people being ridiculed.
Everyone here seems to be talking about zwarte piet and racism. BUT what about the pedophile aspect? After all Sinterklaas is a catholic bishop
true!
I thought of that too!
Lol!
I’m Dutch myself, and I think Zwarte Piet, just belongs in our culture.
it’s nothing against the people with a darker collour of skin, and I think it may even be a complement. Zwarte piet is a lot nicer to watch than this boring old sint that may make you think of your grandfather…
AND He is SOOO cool! He can just do everything. Always trolling around and doing stuff nobody actually is allowed to do, but he can do it always! Like jumping on tables, and climbing on stuff. He makes the people laugh because of the things he does. He does things where little children only can dream of! Zwarte Piet is AWESOME
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http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Pieten or in English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
a little history, about zwarte piet
love this one about Sinterklaas, gives you a complete different look at SK.! or not
I haven’t read all the replies but I always learned that Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet were a Christian version of the God Odin/Wodan and his black Raven. Zwarte Piet is black because of these ravens and people turned a black person into what they knew of a coloured personat some time …
Just like Noorriejj says: we as grown ups make it racism, I think children see Zwarte Piet just as Zwarte Piet and nothing else.
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Maybe we shouldn’t think by every single thing that everyone is trying to discriminate another race. Stop putting yourself in a box and feel left out. Not everything happens because someone is “black or white, blond, brunettes, red, bald, Marokaan or Turkish, Surinaams, handicapped, short or to tall, fat, have big tits, small tits, tiny weeners, big feets, gay or hetro drive a BMW or a Volkswagen”. We all sometimes get ‘discriminated’. Grow up! The society isn’t like that anymore. We don’t invent a Holliday to discriminate. And let the discriminated then join us by celebrating that. Yeah, right.. of course. It’s just a couple days in the darker days of the year (is darker days also discriminating and french frites?) where we and te kids get some joy of someone who’s acting stupid. (Sinterklaas and zwarte Piet both are). OMG are we discriminating old men from the Katholic church of being stupid. You don’t hear them do you?
I completely get that maybe people with a dark colored skin (politically correct?) think this is offensive the first time they see this. I’m truly sorry for that. But put yourself together and see where its all about. Racism exist because discussions like this and our history. It is there cause people even think of there is a possibility that we are discriminating. It not happens as common as everyone wants to believe.
Only the ones who never thought about zwarte Piet as racism, can honestly say that he’s/she’s not a racist. Because he/she doesn’t see difference in skin colors and that this is an issue because people could be joking on black people, it doesn’t come up in this person. It’s just some one who’s painted black. But if it was red or green it could be the same. Especially kids think this way. Not even mentioning its from the chimney as told nowadays. So if you combine zwarte piet with racism, your a racist yourself.
In a couple of thousand years al our genes are mixed up and there will be only one race left. I wish this was now so everybody stops complaining and being racists. To bad that they still exist. But racism that’s not where this holiday is about.
That’s how I feel about it too – connecting the fact that Zwarte Piet has a black-painted face to making fun of black people is indeed thinking in terms of races and creating racism. I never associated Zwarte Piet with black people as a kid and I never did until discussions came up a few years ago.
Should I be offended every time that a blonde, caucasian female is characterized as slutty and stupid (as in almost all Hollywood comedies)? No, because I don’t associate myself with that person at all.
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Here’s a racist comment for you all…
No one ever likes what I say anyway.
Being born and bred in the Netherlands I’ve seen my share of prime examples for people who are ingeburgerd. And I’ve also seen my share of people who are not, and refuse to.
I moved to the USA about 5 years ago and due to the fact that certain things are different, I’ve had to adjust my mentality. (Ie accept the fact that my kids havbe to pledge allegiance to the flag at the start of each schoolday and parents have to before say, a play performed by kids).
I can’t stand the fact that there are people working in retail who barely speak English.
So as for my racist comment: if you go to a new country you had better accept their ways and traditions, else you better get out.
Like I said no one will like it and disagree, but guess what? When people come into your house and startrearranging furniture you don’t like that either, so why would you go to their house and tell them how to live.
So in the end, unless you were born in the netherlands you really should not be in this discussion. By that I mean if you are black and take offense then the only way I will take your points seriously is if you did not move to NL by choice.
Why would you begin your argument with “Here’s a racist comment for you all…No one ever likes what I say anyway.” ?! Not really a great way to get your point being taken serioulsy, you yourself already saying it’s gonna be racist.
There is actually a lot of people born in the Netherlands who have the Dutch nationality and always have had (maybe their parents too and their grandparents too) but who have diffierent ethnic backgrounds and could take offence to it. So to come back to your example, it’s their livingroom too..
Also, just because you’re not born somewhere, or moved there freely, doesn’t mean you have to keep out of discussions or just accept everything (if you follow that argument then nothing can be said about human rights violations in say China, or discrimination of women in certain countries, because it’s their tradition). Moving somewhere does not mean you have to agree with everything or aren’t allowed to comment, you may approve of a lot of things in a country, which is why you move there, but there’s always going to be something you don’t approve of. It’s not a one package deal; “live here and you have to accept EVERYTHING”. It being a tradition is not a valid argument on its own. The fact that it is not meant as racism (anymore) and not associated with racism by a lot of people (and certainly the children) is.
I suppose in a sense you are right Anna, my statement doesn’t really work in all situations. But we are not talking about genocide, female ccircumcision(don’t know the correct word) or (child) slave labor.
We are talking about zwarte piet, a harmless tradition that only bothers those that pretend slavery still exists in their world. None of these people have gone through such hardships themselves. Because as far as my eyes can see, the ones that have gone through true segregation are not even bothered by it that much. As soon as I gety a chance to tqqlk face to face with someone on this matter with someoone who knows true racism by lliving through it will I take it seriously.
You see, I see too many white people complaining about this matter when it doesn’t even affect them. Then I see so many black people celebrating sinterklaas becauuse they don’t see it as a big deal.
And mind you, its only the adullts making a big deal of it, the kids don’t have a clue. And with proper parenting it is never an issue. One is not born into racism, it is taught. So just make sure our kids know the difference and everything is fine.
Like I said somewhere else, if you get rid of the “black guys” helping sinterklaas, you might as well get rid of the “midgets” helping santa.
I agree completely Richard!!! I am Dutch but have had the luxury to travel a lot in my relatively young life and lived on three different continents. I pledged allegiance to the Stars and Stripes on every school assembly, I didn’t order the steak when in India, wasn’t offended by the swastikas on Buddhist temples in Thailand, covered myself in Malaysia eventhough it was boiling hot outside, didn’t laugh at a Maori doing his ritual dance in which a lot tongue was visible…. etc etc.` When in Rome do as the Romans, or at least accept the Roman way! If you can’t accept then piss off! No one was forcing me to travel/live in these countries. And no one is forcing any one to live in the Netherlands. (I always wondered why a lot of war/political refugees seem to find their way to the most wealthy countries in the world in stead of the nearest safe country if their true objective is to escape a war or prosecution)
Back on the slavery topic, not only Africans were a victim of slavery, so were South Americans, Asians, and Europeans. And unless the slavery took place recently (last 75 years or so) you don’t hear most people about it any more. But some people seem unable to let go of this and keep referring to it. Eventhough they haven’t experienced it themselves because it was hundreds of years a go. Most Dutch youngsters don’t even know who Adolf Hitler is anymore (not a good thing but that’s another topic) Let alone they still being upset with the oppression, rape, slavery and murder of their grandparents.
And by the way, slavery wasn’t a racial thing either. The slaves the Dutch b(r)ought from Africa weren’t picked because of their color. They were brought from Africa because they were widely available and sold for cheap by other African tribes rounding up the weaker tribes!
And to conclude, as Marc wrote Zwarte Piet probably evolved from the black devil that Sinterklaas had on a chain. And never was a slave. That’s also why untill WW2 Sinterklaas only had 1 Zwarte Piet, there simply was only one black devil te represent. IF Zwarte Piet was to represent a black human being then most likely this would be a Moor. Moors were no slaves! Instead they ruled over Spain and rounded up Europeans as their slaves! This is were some people believe the story comes from that Zwarte Piet will take children back to Spain if they’re bad!
I’ve lived in America for seventeen years now, and I have always refused to pledge allegiance to the flag. I try to explain why not when people ask, and most of the time they don’t understand, but I have a right to my opinions. I pay taxes here like everyone else. I feel that it’s perfectly fine for outsiders to bring up the Zwarte Piet issue and start a discussion. I always thought that the reply to any criticism “If you don’t like it, why don’t you go back to where you came from” was a stupid American closed-minded remark, and I’m kind of shocked to see Dutch people saying pretty much the same thing here. If you live in a country, for whatever reason, you have a right to your opinion about it.
I am a native Dutch guy, and I have always enjoyed the Sinterklaasfeest. I grew up with it, and personally, I am perfectly fine with it. I know that we used to celebrate it as an innocent Dutch tradition, without any negative references to slavery or black inferiority whatsoever. Although I have my suspicions as to where it comes from, I don´t know the real origin for a fact (as it largely based on fiction rather than fact), so I won´t jump into assumption. I can only say that this feast does not in any way actively encouraged kids into believing that black men are inferior, or that slavery is justified. I have never met a single person in the Netherlands who believes that this is the case because this tradition has taught them so.
And as a kid I would have cared less if the henchmen of Sinterklaas were by tradition dressed up as Martians, windmills or strawberry cheesecakes. However, tradition has it that they are dressed up as black men in silly clownish cloths. Changing a tradition is never accepted lightly, especially in a country which already has a very limited amount of traditions.
On the other hand, I do recognize that (and that’s I think what most of my fellow countrymen tend to forget), although for me there may be no racial stem in this feast for us, others who did not grow up with it may view at it differently. There is no such thing as ‘this is how it is’, there is always a ´how it is viewed upon’ aspect tot it. I do however feel that many outsiders tend to condemn the feast at first glance, without knowing the details of the meaning of the feast. I personally wouldn’t mind changing this part of tradition, although it may be a shock for kids now.
@Chad, you stated: “Also, the Zwarte Piet story you are referring to is the propaganda you guys tell to your children to hide the slavery origins. Stop lying to your children.”.
Imo, you’re viewing it a bit too simple. You must understand that the whole magic of the Sinterklaasfeest is based upon a white lie to children that Sinterklaas (a man who is many hundreds of years old, who is rewarding children with presents if they behave properly, along with the threat that they are punished if they don’t) really exists. When the kids are about 6 years in age, they learn that Sinterklaas doesn´t really exist. You can’t stop lying about just one aspect of it, because that means you would have to deny your the kids the whole feast of Sinterklaas altogether. The only solution is to change the feast as a nation. Until that happens, I´d rather tell my kids a white lie.
Please mind: many discussions are already going on about it. One of the recent initiatives is about ‘Rainbow Piets’: painting faces in bright colors (red, blue, yellow, green, etc.), explaining to the kids that ‘the boat sailed through a rainbow’, and that is how all of the Piets got different colours. But again, it is difficult to change a tradition.
http://www.lindamagazine.nl/2011/11/23/zwarte-pieten-pieten/
All what’s need to be said about Zwarte Piet (but sorry, it is in Dutch!)
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Is there any way one could just leave it a country’s tradition as it is…no one gets hurt or offended?? And please do not involve the US in this…I have livedin the US for 20 years, there is hardly any knowledge nor integration or even interest for foreign holidays…none would be accepted here, so just leave the holidays with the countries where they came from – if and when it is time to change I am sure that will happen.
Culture permeates every level of the lived human experience – from our day-to-day interactions with others to how we approach knowledge, behavior, and feelings. Culture profoundly influences the process of formulation and interpretation. However, despite the influence, the claim of different interpretation and custom has to be examined across domains of historic developments, and much less on the influence and feeling of modern standpoints.
Use of the race argument, in either direction, is much more prevalent in domains with social or economic inequality and inequitable standards. I believe that Holland certainly doesn’t meet the criteria. I suggest giving the deeply rooted opinions regarding the Sinterklaas helpers’ ethnicity views a rest, because the racist conclusions or undertones are factually inaccurate.
As a matter of fact, nowhere other than in the US are racial issues more prevalent and ethnic differences still a groundswell of discontent often manifested in provocation, protest, unrest, and disobedience. To alleviate the ethnic disparity and become more fully inclusive as one, a good start would be to drop the “Africa-American” ethnic identifier.
With that said, let respect each other for who we are and what we stand for.
Apparantly, and this forum shows it, it is hard for us Dutchies to take criticism on a national tradition so well-loved. That is a shame, because self reflection is important, especially when people feel hurt.
To react on some previous comments: I am convinced that most adults in the Netherlands are aware of our sad history with slavery, and also that they understand this is linked to Black Petes, being the helpers of an old white man. If we differ, it is about the consequences this should have for the tradition.
In that regard, two factors kept the tradition as it is:
1) We see no harm in it. Black petes are loved! They are seen as hero’s by children (many of whom want to be Black pete’s when they are young). Children are often a bit afraid of Sinterklaas, a stern and strict old man by reputation and behavior, who knows if you behaved well all year. In contrast, they adore Black Pete’s, because they are always happy, always smiling and always friendly. It is hard to see for us Dutchies how blacks could be seen as negative, inferior etcetera. (on an abstract, rational level, we can see the possibility, but our experience is different)
2) We were all raised with it. When you have such fond childhood memories about this tradition, you do not want to change it. Sinterklaas is a children’s party, it is about family and love, all very positive notions, our substitute for the way people celebrate Christmas in the USA. It is hard to change such a tradition. It might feel like betraying your childhood, your parents (because if you change it: did they do anything wrong?) and deprive your children of what you had as a child. This is not to say this is correct or right, is it just how it feels.
Mind-blowing. Merry Christmas, everyone. I don’t know the origin of the saying, and can’t be bothered to look it up, but what ever happened to “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”? Being an American with a bit of Dutch ancestry, among many others, I am sick to my death of hearing charges of racism at every turn of the road. I forgot to send my census form in last year, so I was honored by a personal visit from a census taker. I answered his questions civilly, and accurately to the best of my ability. When he got to the end of the questions and asked about my race, I told him with a perfectly straight face I was “Native American”. Now, I’m aware that in the bureaucracy that is taken to mean “Amerind, or American Indian or whatever the correct term for the people that were on this continent before Europeans came here is, but I was born here, my parents, grandparents, and all but one set of great-grandparents were born here. I AM, in the strictest sense, a native American. If I move to another country, how would I be entitled to expect those native to that country to immediately embrace myself and my culture and conform to my social standards at every turn? The ancient wisdom is always the most reliable. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”
Joyeux Noël à tous
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Ok folks, I am an American and have lived in the Netherlands for almost 40 years. Obviously, I LIKE living here. (Even though lately, the trend to the right has had me worrying. However, I am worrying about the self-same trend in many countries. USA included.) The ENTIRE Zwarte Piet issue has infuriated me since the day I set eyes upon him. Granted, being a woman of color, I certainly have some baggage about white people running around in blackface, and I do not even attempt to disguise it. The argument that Americans have a different ( and skewed in Dutch eyes) view of this Dutch custom, and should not foist their opinions upon the pure- intentioned, and non-racist Dutch people and their beloved tradition is one I have heard over and over. It still smacks of a disingenious negation of where and how this custom originated. The arguments supporting it’s continued celebration in this form indicates a racism that is so deep-seated as to boggle the mind. They don’t even know ,or care, that Zwarte Piet is racist because 1) it started before there were any black people in the Netherlands, and 2) even the Surinamers accept it. *eyeroll* . So, if Surinamners accept it, that means that it is not racist? Excuse me, but, I don’t care what country you originate from, to make a stereoype (and stereotype it is = blackface, afro wig, big red lips) out of an individual no matter WHAT race is distasteful. To suggest that if you don’t “like” zwarte Piet, you should leave, is risable. This is a great country with many great people. On the subject of Zwarte Piet? They have dug in their heels. No one is going to tell “them” that their tradition is racist and that’s that. Typical of the oh-so-brutally “honest” dialogue. However, It’s only honest if it’s on the “other” foot
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isnt it weird that the young children dont see the black peters as a racial issue whatsoever and look forward to this holiday all year long because its fun and exciting, its only grown ups who make it a problem, I understand that some who are not familiar with this holiday might think of it as offensive but hey that is not the intention no harm is intended but I do think it stay since it is a tradition, dont like it dont celebrate it were not forcing anyone into approving or liking. I for one think thanksgiving is a weird holiday seeing its history but hey I dont care I dont celebrate thanksgiving and the americans seem to enjoy it so why bother making it a big deal…
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Interesting that some posters say that The Netherlands is the most Americanized country in Europe. This if factually untrue.
American culture is influenced more by Dutch culture than any other culture. For starters, The Netherlands and the USA are the only two Calvinistic countries in the world. Religion has a profound impact on values of a society. There are many more facets of American culture that come straight from The Netherlands, from how casual Americans are, even to words like ‘Yankee’ (referred to Dutch Americans) and Dollar (Daalder).
I have had one time a conversation with a Congolese guy about this, who had been jailed about the fact that he had hit someone with a metal jerrycan, because the question was asked “If he shouldn’t be upon the roofs”. He was judged being in the right about the racism, however he shouldn’t have knocked this guy his teeh out. The Congolese guy himself (and the judge) was cool about the “zwarte piet” thing itself, not by the way he was adressed. The judge wasn’t cool about the dental work (for taking his place in punishing (but I guess the judge had no choise else but snigger)).
As an “umuzungu” (white man) I can look every black person straight in the eye about it in reference to the history, even when I do not know all the details about the dirt. At least, I take it as light as when I am adressed in the streets of Kigali as “umuzungu” and hear from a child “Umuzungu! Faranga!”.
Otherwise I can start calling my wife “person” instead of wife .. and she won’t be able anymore to call me “umuzungu”.
I think the reason that the Dutch get so defensive about this, is because they never saw it in a racist way.
The points I discuss are:
- psychological influence by childhood pictures
- servitude? Pieten are nobodies slave.
- culture shock isn’t new. But trying to change another because he has a different culture, is wrong.
- There is no benefit in changing, only more hate.
Pictures in our childhood do change the way we vies things.
To me the history of it doesn’t matter. Even if it was once offensive, and racist, it’s not ment like that anymore. Though I do believe, that childhood pictures can influence, I think Zwarte Piet has many more positive connotations then bad ones. That is to say, I believe that woman’s constant insecurity is partially to thank to the constant flow of images of inhumanely thin or sexy women. But following that logic, seeing Black Piet as an example of black people, they would be funny, generous, agile, happy & smiling, giving presents, helping an old dude, etc. The idea that kids get this influence is a little far-fetched, but not impossible. Although 90% of the people here say they never saw the link between Zwarte Piet and black people, it’s not out of the question.
But the idea that Black Piet is portraying servitude is rediculous. He does not do it against his will, in fact everybody who discoveres that Sinterklaas isn’t real wants to be Zwarte Piet. He is not forced to, he is not being hurt, he does not do more then he can or then he wishes… In fact in the whole day-to-day world in a Dutch society, the idea of slavery is so very banned from sight (to a point where we ignore it, shame on us) I don’t think the idea of servitude of slavery even comes to mind anymore. It’ll be seen as teamwork, a friendship, boss/employee or similar thing.
Never was there a culture shock before. Oh wait, yes there were.
The idea of foreigners coming into the Netherlands, seeing this and feeling shocked. It’s called a culture shock. If I go to countries where men walk in the street, whipping themselves on the back untill they bleed, because they’re sinners, yes I’ll be shocked. But will I try to change it? They’ve obviously been brain-washed by somebody, but well…. It’s their life. The idea that a national celibration should surcomb to the culture shock of others is quite a straining thought. It would give rise to other changes, changes that I can make in another because I feel shocked and offended by them. Any cultural symbol, ritual of celibration is open to discussion because other people don’t like it. In the end, the world will be a bland mass. And you’d think that’s farfetched, but changing the yearly celibration of an entire nation, for many of us more important then Christmas, well, that’s how far this idea is taking us. The fact that another feels shocked is simply because he wasn’t raised there, or he wouldn’t be shocked. So what is the whole point? Change another because you disagree? Come on, most wars are about that, let’s not go there.
Change for the better? Nope.
The example, given earlier about the Spanish time-tables, there was actually a benefit for the Spanish. What is the factual benefit here? I can give you reasons why it’s a bad idea to change it, but no reasons why it’s a beneficial idea. If you were to change this, say by dressing up as a black piet punishable, what will happen is that those who came up with that idea will be hated for changing a happy thing into something problematic. And probably, black people are going to blamed for it – they would be the ones ‘insulted’ after all. So you’re going to create more hate. If mothing else, let that convince you that changing this ritual is a bad idea.
Interesting discussion this. I wanted to react to something Anne wrote:
“I have livedin the US for 20 years, there is hardly any knowledge nor integration or even interest for foreign holidays…none would be accepted here,”
Just wondering where you think Santa Claus himself comes from?
I can think of others right off the bat too, Halloween, St. Patrick’s Day, Chinese New Year. There are also many foreign holidays that are celebrated by ethnic groups that Americans, at least in our area, happily participate in. We have celebrated Sinterklaas here every one of the 28 years I’ve live here. When our kids were younger we took several American families along with us to the local celebration complete with Zwarte Pieten (and one year rainbow Pieten).
What someone else above wrote sticks with me, though. Several black people have spoken out against the tradition in these comments and yet their concerns were poopoo’d by several. If there is one thing I’ve learned while living in this American multicultural society it’s that I may find something quite “normal”, when someone from another culture may take great offense to that same thing. Taking their concerns into consideration is important, IMO.
A black face, which could (wrongly) be explained as a consequence of the chimney, is one thing. Huge red lips and afro (and I once saw a golden ring in a nose) is a whole other thing! And I don’t think “white” Dutch people should decide that that is not offensive… they are not the ones potentially offended.
Good point read earlier… if you insist on Zwarte Piet remaining black, why is that?
I tried to explain the racial issue with Zwarte Piet to my sons of 4 and 6. They just seemed to care about the presents and their wish list. I’m so ashamed of their childish ignorance. They really don’t understand that their parents make up this show to celebrate Dutch slavery history and raise them with a racial bias.
Oh come on, Victor, I hope you are being sarcastic here? So you tell me I’m making up a show to celebrate Dutch slavery history and raise them with a racial bias? We are living in Malaysia, our children play with children from all over the world – from India, Japan, Korea – oh yes, and even some white kids, sorry about that!
Yes, I can see how Zwarte Piet could be offensive. Really. But then again: I am pretty sure (and you can also read it in the comments above) that no Dutch parent will tell his or her children that Zwarte Pieten are dumb or that all black people actually should be our slaves, because we used to do that 300 years ago.
As to the question: why keep him/her black? Don’t know. They did try a few years back, but the idea didn’t really catch on. And I can’t remember a lot of people cheering about how happy they were that Piet was finally literally coloured. Maybe it would have worked if all the people who are now so offended made a little bit more noise then. Maybe they thought: well, if it doesn’t matter we’ll just stick to the way we’ve always done it.’
Maybe it’s this one thing: we are only a small country. The rest of the world is so much bigger. We speak English, we eat French croissants and Italian pasta, we go to Spain with our caravans… There’s only a few things that make us really Dutch: Oranje, drop… and Sinterklaas!
I think yes, he was making a joke… sssttt.
dont forget koninginnedag!!! 
Zwarte Pieten are responsible for the distribution of the gifts. Now how do they come into your house? The answer is very simple, through the chimney. That’s why the children always put their shoes in front of the fireplace. As many of you undoubtedly know, A chimney is tremendously dirty and full of soot. Once a Zwarte Piet has gone through a chimney with the presents, he’s as black as ebony due to the soon that covers his whole body.
The final question is, why are their clothes not dirty? well, at night, when the Zwarte Pieten do their most important work, their costumes are dirty, that’s why nobody ever sees them. The next day, all the clothes have been washed by a so called Was-Piet (Washing-Piet). However, the other Zwarte Pieten are way to busy to clean themselves and that’s the whole story.
According to the oldest accounts, Zwarte Piet (single, not plural) wasn’t even human.
Zwarte Piet was a small, black demon who was defeated by Sinterklaas (him being a saint and all) and he forced the demon to come with him and help him do good; punishing bad children by smacking them with a bundle of sticks (roe) and giving gifts to good children.
Sure, black people influenced the legend, but to suggest the current depiction of Zwarte Piet is malicious or harmful is ridiculous.I’m Dutch and was raised with Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet, I always thought the Pieten were way cooler than Sinterklaas; the character is mischievous and playful and ultimately fair in his judgment, rewarding good people and punishing the bad. Even character flaws, such as being forgetful or clumsy, only serve to make the character relatable by -all- people.
It certainly did NOT make me look down on coloured people; in our cultural perspective, coloured people and Zwarte Pieten are two entirely different entities.
“And I don’t think “white” Dutch people should decide that that is not offensive… they are not the ones potentially offended.” There is the true question of this issue. Is zwarte piet offensive or not. We could argue that since it is the darkskinned dutch that can feel insulted by this, it is their call whether zwarte piet is insulting or not. Given the above reaction I would say it is felt as an insult in a lot of cases and thus zwarte piet is an insult.
On the otherside it could be argued that an insult is something intentional, i.e. an expression is only insulting if it is meant as an insult. Then we would have to decide whether zwarte piet is meant as an insult, which I think is nowadays simply not true and consequently zwarte piet is not an insult.
Easy talking as a white man but where lies the problem?
If its really that insulting to see a group of white people dressing up as black guys and behave a bit silly, perhaps it is your own perception of black people in general. If they don’t mean to offend, why take offense in the first place.
To me someone who has a problem with Black Pete is racist himself, they are the ones who aparently see a connection between behaviour and skin color, I’ve never made that connection anyways.
And why change the tradition? Wouldn’t it be much nicer if people stop relating stuff to someones race?
What bothers me most about this discussion is that some of you seem to use it as a pretense to generalize about the Dutch and present them as a bunch of racists.
The discussion whether Zwarte Pieten (please use the correct plural
) have a racist component or not is one worth having, obviously. In an increasingly multicultural and multiracial country such practices may be offensive. However, it is important to understand that not everyone is going to react cheerfully when you tell them that one of their main traditions is in fact evil. That has nothing to do with the fact that ‘the Dutch’ are not open to criticism; it simply originates in the fact that traditions are a contentious issue. Nowhere, not in a single country in the world, will people readily give up something they cherish.
Thus, it would be very nice if the opponents of Zwarte Pieten tried to understand that it is going to take some time for things to change. And they could do so without uttering stereotypical, discriminatory, generalized comments about more than 16 million individuals.
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I am dutch and as a little kid, when I still believed in Sinterklaas, I also believed Piet was this black of sliding down the chimneys as was told to me and never for one moment I comparised the Pieten with black people.
However, when my niece was little she asked a black woman for pepernoten so apparently the confusion can be made. Is that offensive?
It certainly wasn’t meant offensive by my niece and most propably ( I might hope) neither by all the other little childeren who might have made the comparison.
If black people feel offended by it I wouldn’t mind if we made it a purple Piet or what ever color.
A lot of the black people I know and who I asked don’t feel offended by it. One of my friends said that he just chooses to believe the chimney story because he can’t be bothered by all this negativity.
I admire him for this. I can’t judge about the feelings of the black people who do feel offended because I do not stand in their shoes.
So, if you wanna make Zwarte Piet green………………..go ahead!
It’s funny how adults make a big issue whether “Pieten” should stay black or also “become” white. It is also funny how adults analyse the complete history and origin to argue whether the tradition is an act of racism or seasonal fun and happiness, misconduct or cheer for BOTH adults and adolescents. And it is funny how adults still can act like children when they come face to face with either “Sinterklaas” or “Zwarte Piet” …… And still we are trying to make our children happy. My name is Pieter, and yes I have played “Zwarte Piet” on several occaisions. These days I live on LI in New York and still enjoy “Sinteklaas avond” (Sinterklaas evening) either being present or watching it at my mom and dad’s webcam.
My point: let everybody embrace his or her “own” tradition or celebration and enjoy it. There are dutch people who don’t like Sinterklaas, Others don’t like Christmas, Hannuka, the Easter Bunny, the Energizer Bunny, Piggly Wiggly ……. In the end there are still kids in Holland who shout “Piet, mag ik pepernoten ?!?!?!” (Piet can I have pepernoten ?!?!?!). Piet !! Not Zwarte Piet !! So let them have their joy and fun and enjoy their new presents. And you enjoy yourself too, one way or another !!
The Zwarte Piet got his existance around the 19e centurary. Before that time Sinterklaas walked around allone or with the devil in some ocations. Ow the good vs. bad team in it all. In that time people couldent realy make the difrence between the devil and a Moor (black person). So in that time he had one Zwarte Piet.
It is posable that, that tradision is from the former Morenland in Spain. Around the 1900 the coast of that where having trouble with Algeria and Turkish pirates. Who stole people for slavery. Most often children got stolen as wel. In that case the Zwarte Piet was futher removed from Sinterklaas then no and the childrens phase “Who is nice get treats and who is bad get taken by the moren”
In the second half of the 20e centuary people got more used to black people and Zwarte Piet get a more playfull way of doing. And the Piet get more the rol of spy of Sinterklaas to look if the children are nice “Every thing sees the smart Piet, and he miss nothing”
At the dutch libaration in 1945 the one Piet got his company and Acrobat and Jester like acts this is due to the interpetation of probaly the Canadedien soldiers altho this can be difrent couse around 1939 mobelized dutch soldiers celibrated it with 2 Pieten. But after the War it was a normal sight that the Sint brought more Pieten with him from Spain.
PS. Sorry for the writing flaws Englisch isnt my strong point and i roughly translated it from the dutch wiki http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet. And even then folklore is hard to interpreted after so long of history, couse every time it get told something of it is rewritten.
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Black Peters are Sinterklaas’ helpers. Sinterklaas rides his horse on the roofs en his helpers bring presents for the children by going through the chimneys. That’s the only reason why they are black.
They happen to be black. So what? Why is it so that the only people who can be racists appear to be Caucasians? Even Caucasians can get racial abuse from other minorities, or depending on where they live, majorities but are not ever allowed to make a comment about it.
Lets have a look at other traditions that could be offensive. In Greece, kallikantzeri, where the mischievous goblins appear from the earth during the 12 days of Christmas. Santa’s elves are another example. These are obviously offensive to Little poeple. Santa Claus being old. this is clearly age discrimination. By the way, why is he white? He originates from Turkey so shouldn’t he look a bit more Mediterranean? The reindeers! Animal exploitation. So we’ll end up with a guy who is giving presents if we have to take everything into consideration (I’m sure we can think of something offensive related to his suit and beard too).
There is always something offensive to be found wherever you look. If we have to make everything so that everybody likes it, traditions will disappear completely. The world is already suffering from globalisation and people are complaining about it. Here is another example.
That Nicoulas guy was apparently busy all over Europe, people: Czechs, Hungarians and Slovaks have him too -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikul%C3%A1s
Instead of the Zwarte Pieten, he goes around with the Angel and the Devil… I guess Czechs knew the Zwarte Pieten issue was going to be a controversial one, back in the 12th century or so
Anyway… it seems the only people who doesn´t celebrate this are the Spanish! Shame on us!
Although most of this site is either good fun or hilarious, this is really a sad thread. One of my most fond childhood memories is painting my face black with scorched cork and dressing up as Zwarte Piet, because it allowed us to clown around and do a little mischief (not to mention getting or hands on pepernoten and candy). As far as the big red mouth is concerned, ever bothered to look at “regular” clowns, like Ronald McD for example?
As a white person I really feel insulted by that
My name is Piet, and I am terribly offended by this tradition. Why does Piet have to be the servant?
I think another issue is at play here. Dutch people have a taboo on taboos.
I think that many Dutch people think that getting rid of Zwarte Piet would be more racist than keeping Zwarte Piet. If you get rid of this tradition, it means you are falsifying part of our history. We were racist and slave traders, and this may be a remainder of that terrible history. But changing this tradition would feel hypocritical to many, as it is no longer related to racism. Changing something in the name of racism, while it is not meant racist feels strange.
It is the same situation as people making gay jokes in front of gay colleagues at work. In Dutch culture that means that it is ok to be gay, and that people accept it. The Dutch would feel uncomfortable if the colleague would no longer make gay jokes after someone’s coming out.
It is not politically correct, but PC is not something seen as positive in NL.
It’s odd for me to read that so many people have issues with Zwarte Piet. I understand that people can be offended, but it still feels like some part of me is dying when something I loved so, so much appals so many people.
Like Thaily I’ve always loved Zwarte Piet (I’m Flemish though and because of the show ‘Dag Sinterklaas’ I just talk about one). To me Sinterklaas was scary because he was a Holy man and thus knew EVERYTHING about everyone while Piet was a kindred soul, someone I as a child could relate too. Truth be told, I didn’t know any coloured people when I were young, so I don’t know if I would’ve gone about shouting ‘look mom! It’s Zwarte Piet!’ every time I’d see a darkskinned citizen or not, but it does seem to happen nowadays that children do this around the time of Sinterklaas, which of course does bug people… I don’t know what we could do about this besides educating the children though. Like Paul said, I don’t think we’d want to see our Piet fully changed anytime soon… They did try that in 2006 in the Netherlands I believe? When the boat went through a rainbow or something and all the Pieten got different coloured faces? The dark blue faces did work for me, but if we’d use those maybe the Brits would stumble on a link with Blue Peter? And would that solve a problem, to just change the colour of the faces from brown/black to blue or create more? (Like how are we supposed to explain the blue colour to the children? Are the Pieten alien? Sounds like an adventure out of Doctor Who. Dorium’s head could serve as a prototype. (Sorry, I’m babbling))
I wonder how long it will be before the little people of the world start protesting the use of elves by Santa Claus? I guess that EVERYTHING will eventually offend someone!
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I can definitely understand the issues concerning Black Pete.
However, it’s an decade old tradition and never meant to be racist (at least I certainly hope so).
And don’t forget that Black Pete usually is somebody the children know.
Painting your face black is one of the easiest ways to hide the real identity of Black Pete for small children (Yes, you can use a mask, but that’s, uhm, simply not the same).
I rather continuously explain the reason why Black Pete is black (The chimney story) then change this tradition.
And yes, when celebrating Sinterklaas this year with a bunch of Americans and British, I had to explain it over and over. In the end they weren’t convinced, but all of them wrote a very Sinterklaas worthy poem for others. For me, that’s where the entire Sinterklaas happening is all about.
In my entire life havent met a single dark skinned person who enjoyed to be called after zwarte piet by other kids, nor do my kids of 6 and 4 like it. Hearing my kids asking why pains me.
All I have to say about this is that people are offended by this tradition because like many people here have already stated, although it doesn’t ‘make fun’ of black people, “Piets’ problems are the act of caricaturing – not just the dark skin, but the afro hair, thick red lips, etc, are racial characteristics having been exaggerated”. I am a white non-american immigrant to the Netherlands and I am appalled that this holiday is still happening in 2011. So many different points to discuss that are wrong:
They are black because they came down the chimney? then why aren’t their clothes dirty? Please, they are black people – and if you associate them with the historical perspective of Sinter Klaas (his ‘workers’) , they are his slaves.
What’s that? if the kids are bad then Piet is going to come beat you up and take you away? So what, teaching kids to be afraid of black people at an early age. ok?
I know for a fact that I have witnessed SEVERAL live examples of people discussing this because they are offended by it and then get bashed for being offended by it. And what is the reaction from native Dutchmen?: if you don’t like it, go home! Very inviting mentality indeed.
First something positive about black Pieter my nephew loves black Pieter but is scared of the old white guy. This whole discussion is about tolerance. I can understand your point of view, without the cultural background it looks racist. But sint klaas (santa claus) is not about glorifying slavery or racism. It`s about family and if you cannot look past black Pieter that makes you the intolerant person here. We as ethnic Dutch must give up al what we are so that others (expats) can hold on to their beliefs and culture in the name of tolerance. But the true is that tolerant is a gray area without mutual respect for the cultural differences there can`t be tolerance. If you can’t look deeper at pakjesavond (boxing evening) and step over your hang-ups than that is your problem not the Dutch.
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as a dutch person, I find this whole discussion very bad. A friend of me once said the pieten were racist, and I told him that since the late 1940s only other nations could be racist- Dutch people cannot. It is not possible. Since my children are growing up learning that pieten are jolly people on bromfietsen who play pranks and drive too fast I consider that it is a sacred national tradition. Also the TV program is very good- I still watch it as an adult, and especially find it nice before they come to Nederland and are still on the boat. The foreign people in their separate neighborhoods with all the satellite dishes will be driven out by conservative governments anyway, so why worry?
I diden’t read, all the comments but I wanted to explain “de zwate piet” . If you go to the dutch wikipedia an look for zwarte piet, and translate that you’ll find out that, “zwarte piet” is black because he was a slave,an Ethiopian boy (piter) and sinterklaas, paid to buy him free, the boy was so thankful he stayed whit him since…(a lot later it was thought, that one piet was fun but a lot more was more fun) another explanation is that piet is (and now i will copy paste from wikipedia)- According to the Meertens Institute was originally Black Peter is not black, but white. His name was John the Servant . [3] In Germany, Santa Claus even a servant. His name as Knecht Ruprecht and was originally white. France has even a white servant of Saint Nicholas, known as Le Pere Fouettard . [4]
-Another theory was originally a Peter Italian chimney sweep .
-Another possibility for the origin of Zwarte Piet is the Germanic god Woden . Odin rode on his white mold , Sleipnir , air and was captain of the Wild Hunt . He was always accompanied by two black ravens , and Huginn Muninn . The Ravens listened, like Black Peter, on the chimney for Odin the good and the bad deeds of mortals to tell. [5]
-See also the berserker , the whole body was painted black and they wore animal skins. The berserker has the quality of Odin into a bird, fish or game animal and flying change.
-The servants of Christmas in other countries are often portrayed as the devil (sometimes with horns of animals (goats)), for example, the Krampus , which corresponds to the suppression of the pre-Christian deities. The once all-powerful deity was as a servant or slave of the Saint considered a way to Christianize the pagan population.
-The Scandinavian kerstbok (Julbocken) (the name refers to the Yule or Yule ) similar in appearance much like the Krampus, the Finnish Santa Joulupukki Julbocken comes from the off. The Jólasveinar give as Black Peter, gifts during the period around Yule. Also for example, Cernunnos , the horned, wearing antlers.
-Compare Black Peter with the fur-clad French harlequin (to Hellequin), often with black (half) mask , also known as the leader of the Wild Hunt is supplied. The Italian Befana is smeared with soot and brings gifts through the chimney.
-The origin of this helper is controversial, there are also different ideas about it: he was originally a demon who was forced by the holy good deeds, or just a Christian deity who had to submit to the Christian saint. Some say it goes back to a Moorish servant, and his skin color is due them. In other countries, the Moorish variant is unknown, here is the helper of Sinterklaas is usually a devil (eg Krampus ) and the character was only since the Christianization and malignant devil portrayed.
-From a Christian perspective of the vanquished Satan has Piet, Deputy overcome Odin or his helper Nörvi , the black father by night, which also carried a wand (a fertility symbol ). A servant of the devil as the year is still clearly visible in the Austrian Christmas traditions . Here is a Santa Claus accompanied by Krampus or Percht that is quite terrifying demonic appearances and noisily through the streets dragging chains.
Sorry it got so much
But so you see it is just what you belief, in my eye’s its not a black man it is just “piet” whit shoe polish on his face, he is part of sinterklaas, and the whole tradition, and to allot of dutchies he is no slave or black man just piet….
The whole artical is here: http://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FZwarte_piet (translated)
Here’s my two cents. If you want to feel offended, please feel offended. Anyone can feel offended by anything. Being offended in itself is not a proper excuse for change – please realise this. I can be offended by any number of cultural differences in other countries and probably am. What matters is whether this tradition propagates racism and related hate crimes. Does it actually make anyone worse off or not? Children don’t think it’s racist, they love it. Throughout the year, is ‘Black Pete’ used as a general insult? Not that I know of. Moreover, are black people discriminated more in the Netherlands, which his this tradition, than in other countries, where they don’t? Clearly not, so the very idea that this tradition leads to racism is faulty and unproven. It doesn’t lead to racism, it leads to ‘offense’. How utterly, utterly terrible. People relate the images to see to a past that many of them never experienced but have been shocked with – and honestly, it’s a very good thing that we know of this past and avoid making the same mistakes, because racism is terrible. But racism is not ‘seeing someone is different’. Racism is treating other people unfairly because they have a different race. Maybe people do get insulted for ‘Black Pete’. And white people get insulted for ‘Whiteys’. Everyone insults each other all the time and they’re going to use whatever comes to mind – culture and skin color are easy targets. This whole tradition doesn’t propagate or influence that. I wish people would stop pretending it did.
I completely agree with the above comment from Sleaw. Even IF the Zwarte Piet-tradition is racists to people, it is not ment that way. Further, the Dutch are very proud of this unique non-racist friendly-ment childrens feast, of which the by Coca-Cola invented Santa Claus comes from. And like in every country, people get very sensitive when immigrants and expats want to change their customs and tradition: from trail by jury to gun laws in the US to bullfighting in Spain to headscarfs in the Middle East, it is not upon foreigners, immigrants and expats to protest against it. Sinterklaas is a sacred Dutch tradition, you don’t need to participate, you are even allowed to disapprove it, but if you protest out loud against it and want to change it, most people will bluntly honest tell you to f off where you come from and/or go live somewhere else where you won’t be bother with it i.e. almost every other country on earth.
By the way: there are plenty of people from Surinam and the Caribbean in my surroundings (mother, ex-girlfriend, girlfriend, best friend) who are absolutely not offended by Zwarte Piet. They don’t feel spoken too or challenged by Zwarte Piet and think of people who do as cry-babies who should grow up.
But like Sleaw already rightfully so stated above: please fell offended.
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg&w=420&h=315
Hello everyone! I really like this blog, a lot of it is fun to read and I can really find myself thinking: man.. I do that too!! I know that so many people get offended by “zwarte piet”, to me myself that’s just a pitty.. Sure we could all decide to take zwarte piet away and just replace them with any Jack and Jill.. However.. I really don’t think everyone should get so.. Offended by it. I’m not stupid, I know slavery was and still is a horrible thing, and that the Dutch have a long long long history with it. But this is just a childrens holiday.. It’s not ment to offend people at all.. Not too long ago, I was a kid that would get sooo excited by the idea of Zwarte Piet climbing down our chimney and bringing me presents (which was the reason he was black as ash or “roet”). It’s an old and harmless tradition (to me), but then again, I’m just not offended that quickly by such harmless things..
Haha I love this discussion!
Fact is: It is an old folk story that Zwarte Pieten are the slaves of Sinterklaas.
The story I knew until I was 15 or something (!!!): The Zwarte Pieten bring the presentes through the chimney and that’s where they get the black from.
Conclusion I’d drawn:
It used to be racism, but we don’t see it as racism, we don’t tell our children it’s racism and JUST want to keep the fun part of the tradition alive.
I even thought of a solution:
It would be strange if a Zwarte Piet would be white all for sudden, but when children see a spot of Piet that is not painted black the parents say: “He comes through the chimney, why would he get black behind his ear?” and this is something children immediately believe most of the times. If the Pieten would get a BIT less black every year and have more spots the modern idea we all support of the black because of the chimney would make the racist part disappear.
Many people think my theory is bullshit and that Zwarte Piet should stay Zwart. What do you think of this ‘solution’?
I never liked it when people force their ideology unto other people by appearing moral (goes for both parties). I feel that it is a subtle form of bullying. That is perhaps why we, as a species are doomed. Our wisdom only goes as far as we can admit our own ignorance.
I would like to make two points:
- There are very few kids who associate Zwarte Piet with slavery, or somehow being subservient in a bad way to Sinterklaas… Yes, Zwarte Piet might lose stuff and talk funny, but without Zwarte Piet Sinterklaas would never be able to do all he does… Of course those saying that many Dutch people to easily dismiss the notion that others might not see Zwarte Piet as something positive do have a point as well
- About Dutch xenophobia (since it was brought up a couple of times in this post)… Dutch xenophobia is rising, but keep a few of these things in mind (points that IMHO are often overlooked when discussing current Dutch attitudes towards foreigners/migration):
Less than 50 years ago, basically the only non-white people to be found in the country were Indonesians and Chinese who had come over after Indonesia became independent. Now they make up around 10% of the population. Again, a change taking place in roughly 40 years.
Less than 50 years ago, there were less than 500 Moroccans and Turks combined (!) living in the Netherlands. Now these two groups alone account for about 750,000 thousand people, disproportionally concentrated in the cities).
Now Amsterdam, by some official count has the most nationalities in a single city (at least 177 or 179) in the world.
Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague are now all cities that are 50% non-Dutch/autochtoon in population; some parts of these cities are almost completely non-Dutch. And that massive change essentially took place within 2 generations (!), some 40 years at the most (if not a mere 30), and is highly visible due to differences in skin colour.
The rampage of the EU train, with accompanying loss of traditional Dutch institutions – guilder, but many social institutions as well – as well as the impact of globalisation and associated job loss since 1990.
The fact that for years the negative aspects of mass-immigration were not to be discussed until it boiled over with the arrival of first Fortuyn, and which is now skillfully exploited by Wilders (who himself is IIRC half-Indonesian, married to a Hungarian wife).
The fact that to some extent this – mass migration without consideration of negative side-effects – is repeated again at this very moment with Central and Eastern Europeans; also many Dutch feel economically threatened by EU policies, including free migration. And to a considerable extent actually rightfully so; see for instance the way Poles (and soon Romanian and Bulgarians) are used to squeeze Dutch people (both allochtoon and autochtoon) out of the labour market. Because many Dutch people (as well as Moroccans and Turkish people, these disproportionately so) HAVE lost their jobs, only to see them replaced by Poles (I was witness in one major Dutch company to that process), or to see the Poles at the least be used to suppress the wages of the Dutch workers. Of course the people losing their jobs – disproportionately non-white ‘allochtonen’ – end up with an ‘uitkering’ and hence seem to confirm the stereotype of lazy profiteering foreigner. Mind you, within a couple of years about 300,000 Poles (and it could well be more) entered the Dutch job market in the mid-2000s. And the first batch of them is now (thanks to EU rules) eligible for Dutch uitkeringen…
Although I understand the misunderstandings related to Zwarte Pieten I can ensure you that they are black because they deliver their surprise presents from Sinterklaas by going through the chimneys at night (only way in without breaking entry). That is also why children lay down carrots and sweet at the fire place at night (in beginning of December), to please the horse of Sinterklaas and the Zwarte Pieten. At night de Zwarten Pieten go through the chimney and exchange the carrots and sweet by presents for the childeren.
Easy as that
I was searching for this post! People always bring the race-thing up; you’ll be black too from the soot if you went down through thousands “chimneys” on Pakjesavond.
The Netherlands is truly a magical place. Going down a Dutch chimney will give you an afro and change your accent. WOW!
I understand people can feel offended by our traditional Black Pete. No matter his true origin, at some point in time he was changed into a caricature of a negro (wig and big red lips).
But how can we go about setting this right? If we’d exchange them all for White Pete’s wouldn’t someone at some point, maybe 10, 20 years later, be offended that all the Black Pete’s got sacked and instead White Pete’s got the job?
If we remove him completely we’ll take away the biggest fun part of the holiday for the children. As said before, Sinterklaas is stern and holy-like, Black Pete is the friendly one that kids can relate to. And how would I explain to my kids (the eldest will be 4 years next Sinterklaas) that Pete is gone?
Unlike what other people say my daughter does see skin-colour. She doesn’t see race though, for her skin-colour falls into the same category as the difference between a red and a grey cat. Or a pink horse (TV). When she puts on her Pete-hat she’s Pink Pete. When she adds some paint she’s Black Pete. If she wears a cape she’s Snow White’s Prince. No matter that she’s a girl.
For kids the world is very simple. People aren’t different inside because of how they look outside. You put on a cape and you’re someone else.
Would you change the various princess fairy tales cause it’s offensive to Lesbians / Feminists / Real Princesses ?
It’s a fairytale ffs! Add new ones, make a fairytale about a Prince that has to be saved from a dragon by a Princess. Disney is already on the right track with the one about the Princess and the Frog.
Maybe with Sinterklaas we could add some Pink Pete’s, White Pete’s, Yellow Pete’s and Red Pete’s. Maybe add some Blue ones as well, in case the Aliens land in a couple of years
PS. I’m Dutch and mother of 2 little children.
Prejudicialness is real unfortunately. It’s not as conscious a thing as people make it out to be though. A lot of people think they’re not prejudiced (different thing from racist btw) while subconsciously they are, in the same way that our mind makes distinction between man and woman, fat and thin, pretty and ugly, blond and red. Those who scream the loudest that they’re not prejudiced often make the most distinction subconsciously.
It’s just as bad to generalise that blonde girls are dumb and red girls are great in bed. On average women still make less money then men in the same job.
We had a rather racist colleague at work and my boss was hesitant to hire an ethnic colleague cause it would cause tension. Is that racist or realism?
I just watched Labyrinth yesterday and the main character kept repeating “It’s not fair” till at some point she realised that life isn’t fair. Sometimes it’s just the way it is.
They are black because they personify the Devil, while Sinterklaas personifies God. It’s a very christian celebration at its roots, celebrating the victory of God over the Devil.
Their likeness to Moors can be seen as imagery that has been appropriated at a later date.
This debate will never end. Some facts: ‘Zwarte Piet’ has been part of Dutch tradition for centuries, at present (perhaps this was different 100 years ago but that’s not relevant now) Zwarte Piet has by no means any rasictic connotations to Dutch people, let alone children. Zwarte Piet is portrayed as a child’s friend and helper of Sinterklaas (not only as a ‘Dumb Piet’, as you may know there are hundreds of Piets, each having their own ‘designation’), Piet is black from the chimney, honestly not in my entire life did I relate Piet to a racial issue. On the other hand, non-Dutch people may consider Zwarte Piet to be offensive, of course, it is not the intention to insult anyone. However, by abolishing Piet entirely, you may as well abolish the entire Sinterklaas feast as unthinkable to celebrate Sinterklaas without Zwarte Piet. As adults, let’s not forget this is a CHILDREN’S festival, innocent kids who look forward to Sinterklaas throughout the whole year. No parent would ever tell their children that Piet is a slave of Sinterklaas because of his ‘skin colour’. I honestly don’t think Zwarte Piet is ever going to be abolished because it may be offensive to others. Perhaps those who feel offended should try to accept that Zwarte Piet is simply part of the children’s celebration, kids don’t judge on skin colour, only adults do.
The Dutch are all about tolerance ::eyeroll:: . Well, in the literal sense, I suppose. While some cultures ACCEPT outsiders, the Dutch are quick to point out that 1.You’re different 2.They don’t like you 3.You ought to leave, but… 4.If you don’t, they’ll TOLERATE you
I think that’s funny.
Can’t think of a more accurate list of what happens when I start talking to a Dutch whom I have just met. Funny thing, they recruited me here to do something their own scientists are too stupid to do but desperately need. However, because I don’t approve of how I get treated here, I’m going back to the us in a couple month (would go sooner if my new job back in states started earlier). To be fair, I’ve had excellent experiences with Dutch scientists. That’s why I’m not surprised that all the good ones are in faculty positions abroad or in nl but planning to leave…
Maybe you are just not really nice people yourself and the dutch react to that.
Here’s something that no one I’ve asked about this has ever been able to answer…
Fine, for the sake of argument let’s say that Zwarte Piet isn’t racist, he isn’t an African slave, or a Moor, his skin is black from the soot of climbing down the chimney. So why aren’t his clothes sooty? Why are his lips still bright red – why aren’t they covered in soot? And why does climbing down the chimney somehow make his hair turn kinky?
I think its important to realize that while most Dutch people (myself included) do not experience Black Pete as being racist, but as a fun character from our most favourate festival, it is still grosly offensive to many others. Personally, I think that we should be far more sensitive to other peoples feelings on the matter (yes, the intentions are not immediatley racist, but the latent message that the image of a black servant with overstated red lips sends to all who observe the festival is still very much racist in nature). We should therefore change Pete’s appearance, especially his skincolour (bright green anyone? or ‘rainbow’ as has been tried before). In order to achieve this, though, we need large scale coordination and cooperation. Unfortunatley, Sinterklaas is so important to Dutch people that any critisism will cause many to dig in their heels…
I will just stick with my never changed solution that the black petes are indeed black, because they come down the chimney.
Although, I must confess, at some point I thought; hey! How come if climbing down the chimney makes you black, that Santa Claus is still white? I mean, he also climbs down that same chimney a couple of weeks later? Or did that black stuff by then disappeared because the Pete went in there first?
First of all I would like to say thanks to “SDPL” for all the great and funny observations about the Dutch, it cracked me up. However, as a Dutch person, I feel the need to tell something about the tradition of “Sinterklaas” and “Zwarte Piet”. As for the most common story told to little children, it basically tells them about a friendly elderly man who decided his birthday (fifth of December) should be a joyous occasion, not just for him but for everyone. The idea was that, originally, the gifts and presents were to be of practical use, mainly to help people get through the harsh and cold Dutch winter. This soon changed after the Industrial Revolution (which, in the Netherlands, started in 1856) to the children receiving presents, with whom was meant to be played and were not only meant to be used for labour.
As for the discussions about whether “Zwarte Piet” may or may not be racist to people, clearly there are people that feel somehow racially connected to “Zwarte Piet”, due to the extensive slave trade carried out by the Dutch. I admit, this is a horrid peace of Dutch history that will always haunt us, not only now but in the future as well. This is however not the case. The main idea of “Zwarte Piet” is that he is coloured due to the enormous amount of chimneys he has to go down through during the “Sinterklaas” celebrations. Many of you may wonder, why is he always coloured then and not just on the 5th of December? Well a simple explanation for that is that he visits children throughout the entire festivities, from the date he arrives, 17th of November, until the 6th of December, the date when he leaves. The children leave their shoe by the chimney (as they would normally do on the 5th of December) together with some sweets for Saint Nicholas or “Zwarte Piet” or a carrot for Saint Nicholas’ horse. As for the other explanation, they say that “Sinterklaas” is based on the Germanic god “Odin”, this explanation, however not told very often, sounds plausible. The “Zwarte Pieten” could have been directed from the black crows that Odin used to listen whether people misbehaved, which in their own way “Zwarte Pieten” do as well. Sinterklaas himself is not just on old cripple man, he is very much vivid and strong. Most of the time he is depicted as a tall man riding his horse through whatever obstacle lies on his way, just to do his “duty” very much given to him by no one other than himself. He therefore resembles Odin quite a lot.
Now on to the discussion about the origin of “Zwarte Piet” then, as the story of “Sinterklaas”spread through parts of Europe, it eventually arrived in the Netherlands as well. However, when the story was told in other countries, there was always a helper accompanying “Sinterklaas”, however the Dutch people had no such thing. Around 1850 the Dutch writer Jan Schenkman introduced a helper for “Sinterklaas”, but he wasn’t given a name yet. Many names were thought of: Trappadoeli, Nicodemus, Assiepan, Sabbas, Hans Moef, Pikkie, Robbert, Krik-krak, Micheltje, Hansje van Vese (or Hansje van Kese), Jacques Jour (or Sjaak Sjoor). In 1859 there was an article talking about the name Pieter (Piet) this was the first mentioning of the name Piet associated with “Sinterklaas” helper. In 1895 “Zwarte Piet” was first mentioned and eventually managed to win over the Dutch People’s hearts.
As for the number of helpers: During the 20th century people thought: If one helper is fun, why not have two instead? For a while “Sinterklaas” had two helpers both “Zwarte Pieten”, until after the liberation of the Netherlands during World War II. The Canadian soldiers stationed in the Netherlands at that time (as you guys are Canadian this might be a fun fact for you as well) celebrated the “Sinterklaas” feast, not with 2 helpers, but with masses of “Zwarte Pieten”. The concept was liked by the Dutch people and since then have been using not one or two, but often as much as twenty to thirty “Zwarte Pieten” during the festivities.
Wow, I have just spent around 1.5 hours on my post, I hope you guys find the answers you needed from it. I strongly believe that “Zwarte Piet” isn’t racist in any way whatsoever, and hope you guys try to see it from the points of view I mentioned in my previous statements.
Sincerely,
Laurens Lamberts, a proud supporter of “Zwarte Piet”